00:00
I figured out pretty quickly, there's no way you're gonna get people to put sashes on, bow down to a vanguard, and do these rules and rituals. And I just said, f*** this, I'm out. I felt like incompetent people were in charge of things that they shouldn't be qualified with. When we did get competent people, say with Harvard Business degrees or stuff like that, they were gaslit into thinking that's a traditional way that doesn't work. We like to work with the person, you're all about results. Just s*** like that went on all the time. The first thing you do...

00:29
The first thing I did is I just, you got to get out of the clutches of it, physically, out of any sort of range so you can recoup, you can strategize. I would find people that are doing what you want to do at the highest level and figure out what they do, you know, in terms of a pursuit.

00:53
You're listening to the Radcast. If it's radical, we cover it. Here's your host, Ryan Alford. Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast. I'm Ryan Alford, your host. And we've got a pretty radical topic here today. I'm excited about this, they kind of go down different angles, but I'm also just excited for everyone to hear, if you haven't heard this story. I've got Anthony Ames joining the podcast today. Anthony, welcome to the show.

01:23
Thanks for having me. Hey man, uh, actor, you've probably seen Anthony, some of his work, um, podcast hosts a little bit Colty, which, Hey, is a little bit of a tease into, into our discussion today. I got it. We didn't leave much off the table there. Yeah, it's on the nose. I know former Ivy league quarterback even, you know, I, I, you're the first former, uh, collegiate quarterback we've had on the Radcast. So you can hold that.

01:51
and maybe the first member, ex-member of a cult. A lot of firsts on this one, that's great. I know. Anthony, let's just start, I know we'll get into some of your work now and I do wanna talk about NXIVM and the cult stuff, obviously, but let's do for everybody listening, just the normal background and your acting career and all those kind of things and just set the table for

02:21
Ultimately where things went maybe a little south but right So, yeah, I am originally from your neck of the woods Atlanta, Georgia One of four boys and a little girl a little sister and

02:44
I guess in terms of how I got involved, I think is where I'll fast forward to with what we're calling Nexium. But it really wasn't actually Nexium when I first joined it. It was called Executive Success Programs. So it was more of like a coursework and eventually grew into that. So I was in, after college I went home to Atlanta.

03:09
for about eight months and I went to the regional NFL combine to try out and just kind of see where I stacked up and after that I moved to New York and probably like June of 99.

03:27
And I started taking acting classes and I was started auditioning a little bit. And then I was at a party, probably sometime in 2000. And I ran into an old high school girlfriend of mine that I was still kind of interested in. And, but you know, it was time had passed and we stayed in touch and she was originally from Albany, New York, which is where.

03:52
Nexium headquarters were and really the whole entire curriculum or whatever you want to call it cult I'll just call it cult stick to that started and She had told me about this program and it sounded weird from the get and I actually said to her I don't think I'm a dear cult And kind of jokingly I didn't really think it was a cult. They just sounded weird And she you know, you know time went on and she stayed on me about it because she knew me like when we dated I had like

04:22
I had books on John F. Kennedy, I had books on Troy Aikman, John L.E., all the people that I looked up to and wanted to aspire to be like. Everyone's got mentors when they're young or when you want to go do something, you see who's doing what you want to do at a high level and you check it out. So I was always into stuff like that. And she knew that and she basically said, look, this is a program that helps people with that and where they're...

04:50
limited. She's like, you're not limited anywhere, but emotionally. And those were all things that had me nodding and saying yes, also, was someone I trusted. I'd known since I was, you know, 15 years old, and I'd known her family since I was 15 years old. And I think what really got me one time is I had just finished like an independent film. And every time I did kind of a project or something like that, I would go take kind of a vacation, see a friend somewhere. And she's like, What are you gonna do? Just go party for a week?

05:18
instead of work on yourself. And I kind of went, I was like, you know what, she's fucking right. I am gonna do that. So she kind of not, I wouldn't say manipulated, but I would say she knew my values and she knew it was important to me. And she kind of presented that to me in a moment of like, you know, she held me hostage to it a little bit. And there was one other factor too, is that she had told me her dad had done it. And I always respected her dad. Her dad's a brain surgeon. He played football at Yale. And it was kind of someone that I felt like if he had done it.

05:48
you know, how bad could it be? And so I took, you know, what was a lot of money for me at the time to $2,000, $2,160, I think it was, was. And I went up to Albany, New York and took a five day training in June of 2001. And I was kind of the arms folded guy at first, you know? Really wasn't gonna let myself be drawn into it.

06:18
Um, it was weird from the get, um, but finally, after like two or three days, it got into some practical stuff, practical stuff that I'm sure a guy like you or, you know, anyone that's, you know, wants to perform and intro introspective and wants to problem solve their own lives could, could use. And, um, I've since found a lot of that stuff was stolen, ripped off, and I've actually found the actual places where.

06:45
it was ripped off. There's a book I read called Power versus Force. It's by David Hawkins. Not to be confused with David Hawking's. Amazing book. And literally, down to the metaphors and the examples in the book were in the curriculum. Three times. Three literal like...

07:06
examples and I'm reading that going fuck me. I could have read this book 20 years ago. It would have saved a lot of a lot of hassle. So I finished the five day. I had a really, really good experience by the end and that's kind of how they set it up. Right. You leave, you have you know I'm 26, 27 at the time.

07:27
I haven't done cognitive behavioral work. I haven't done this. It's very new to me, right? And it's not in our traditional education systems. And in terms of self-awareness and things that were getting me to think differently, it was very, very positive.

07:41
Um, it was just, it was just, it was just like the, the form of you see all the, the, you know, before it was the rage and for social media, but now it's all life coaching and all that is just life coaching on story steroids. Yes. And, and other aspects of it too, that were interesting. You would go into breakout groups and you would get multiple perspectives from different people, which I found very, very helpful also, you know, in some of them, you know, there are people there that were, you know,

08:05
the range of people from like a brain surgeon to like an 18 year old kid who wanted to be a better wrestler in his high school team. So it felt very positive. And those are the things that I'm really sensitive to. Like you have to really discipline your mind to get negative emotions out of it. And you have to be self-aware to do that. And that was just some of the things that I always try to get out of my psychology and understand the origin of, which I think is helpful for anyone, if you wanna be.

08:34
successful and I come from an atmosphere in my household where there was a lot of I wouldn't say negative reinforcement but I'll give you an example of of something that happened to me when this is the Olympics were in Atlanta in 1996 and I can remember one night my brothers and I were out to like probably five in the morning and You know I come home my dad's there. He comes into my room around 7 opens the door and goes Troy Aikman's not sleeping

09:03
and would walk and leave out, leave the room. Right. So it was that kind of like enforcement reminder of our goals. And look, it works to a certain extent, you know, you read about coaches, some kids need to pat on the ass, some kids need to be yelled at, I got a little bit of both. I'm, I'm pretty sensitive. And I found that understanding the origin of that of how I beat myself up to achieve things was one of the things I got out of the first five day and I felt

09:32
evolving that was a very positive thing for my psychology. And I really developed the self-awareness to go, I don't need to do the negative reinforcement. I can frame it in a positive way. So just having something like that almost felt like that was worth, you know, price of admittance. Who knows if I could have read a book or done something else on the own at the time, but for whatever reason, this is how I evolved that. And so...

09:57
I was pretty content with what I got there and wasn't really interested in going forward, but my ex-girlfriend was pretty convincing at the time. She was like, come finish the 11 days. And I did in August of 2001. Was this like friends with benefits or is this like, you know? Well, you know, that's what I was hoping. So there was two reasons I was there, right? I was kind of hoping that I could get back together with her. But you know, and you know, a lot of case by case as to why people.

10:26
would do that, but I was still interested in her and part of what I was doing was for her and part of it was like, oh, this is actually some good stuff. So it was a combination of things. You know, some people, you know, as the organization grew, we were doing intro events where people like come do your, and it got a little salesy, which I was never really comfortable with. I was more of like, that's just, that felt icky. So anyway, that's 2001, kind of right before 9-11. And I decide

10:56
Because they really wanted people in hindsight. I recognized what they were doing is they just wanted coaches and then coaches would staff the trainings And they told me you can become a coach and you get to staff the trainings and shadow and do the trainings for free Like I can be in there staff, you know do coffee or whatever and whatever and then they started running them in New York City So I was in New York City and the only way I could take their curriculum was take a three-hour bus ride To Auburn in York, and then they started setting one up in New York City

11:23
So for me, it was kind of an easy thing of, okay, I can still audition, be in New York, have both these things. I actually was sitting down budgeting stuff. Like I figured out, I went out once or twice a week, I would spend at least $300 going out and doing things that weren't towards my goals. To be involved with ongoing curriculum, $300 a month, it just felt like I cut that out of my life and I invested. That was a no-brainer for me. Practical. And so I'm involved as a coach.

11:51
for probably about another year and a half. And then it just dawns on me. Cause the only place you could take it was Albany, like the intensive, and then you could do the weekly classes in New York. And it just wasn't a well-willed machine. And I figured out pretty quickly, there's no way you're gonna get people to put sashes on, bow down to a vanguard, and do these rules and rituals. And I just said, fuck this, I'm out. But I wasn't, I wasn't,

12:20
Overt with it. I was like cool. You guys have something good. I'd send a friend or two there under Circumstances, I always kept in the back of the mind and conversations with people because I would say hey If that's what you're looking for I did this and this was fun and I'd send a couple friends here and there and I wasn't involved with the organization for about Let's say three years, but it wasn't it wasn't volatile. It wasn't like I was

12:44
you know pissed anyone i knew anything was going on is literally a course that i would send friends to and next year didn't exist as its title yet was called executive success programs and that was the only company that existed at the time and then that forbes article came out in two thousand three and you need to understand this this organization started in nineteen ninety eight in about three or four years that president organization nancy salzman

13:15
was working with Edgar Bronfman, head of Seagram's Liquor, and head of the Jewish Halal Center. So head of some very powerful in religion, head of someone, I forget the woman's name, at Black Entertainment Television, she was coaching them. And then there was someone from Mexico, kind of head of medicine in Mexico. She was in the ear of three pretty influential people in a very short amount of time. So.

13:43
It was kind of a rag tag on its grassroots level, but there was an aspect of it where it had gotten to some purging people in a short amount of time. So it wasn't doing that because it was, it wasn't powerful. It was doing it because there were some aspects to it. And you saw Fowl and you saw the series, the Dalama endorses thing. And they had a lot of people kick the tires on who Nancy Salisbury was, who Keith Raniere was. So

14:09
While people look back and say, hey, I wouldn't have fallen that, maybe you wouldn't have, but a lot of other influential people did fall for it. And that's what people need to start to look and understand because these cons and these kinds of things and these abuses of power.

14:23
they come pretty well packaged sometimes. And if people have the gift of gab to do this, and that's a lot of the stuff that kept people in. So I decided in about December of 2003, I'm not the person that's gonna lead this. I didn't really want to. The ROI on the curriculum had kind of run its course with me. I got it and I was applying it to my life.

14:48
I was in touch with Lauren Salzman here and there, and I felt like, you know, that's going to be my relationship with the company. I don't think I'm going to be a guy that's going to come in and teach the curriculum. And it wasn't my jam. And then I get cast in something in LA in around 2005, 2006, and I live in LA for a little bit. And then they ended up, the organization in that time in about three years grew very, very quickly and pretty big. They were in Mexico City, Monterey. It was growing in New York City.

15:18
just beginning to do a center in L.A. and that's when Mark Vicente, a film director, who if you've seen The Vow, he directed the movie What the Bleep Do We Know, which came out around 2005, it had a lot of success, and he came to L.A. and he was telling me, hey listen, we have this film project, people thought of you as being one of the characters in this film, and you would have to move back to New York.

15:45
and specifically Albany. And I'm like, well, shit, that sounds like a great opportunity. But it wasn't ESP. It wasn't next scene. It wasn't any of those things that was luring me back. It was work. And in my mind is I'm going to go shoot this film and I'm going to come back to L.A. or, you know, whatever, whatever comes from the film will open up other doors. And so they pay for me. They move my car. They pay for my apartment. They pay for everything to move me back to Albany, New York. And around September, August of

16:14
2006. We go into pre-production. I get on a helicopter in Albany, New York one day. I think it was the fall of 2006. Fly down the Hudson, land on 34th, wherever that helicopter pad is. We go to Bergdorf Goodman. I get fitted for two suits and some stuff for wardrobe. And I think this thing's happening, right? Cut to money.

16:43
cut to, there was always a problem. And Mark, at this point, I'm somewhat pissed at Mark. But I'm not paying for anything. They're paying for me to be there. So I'm kind of like, OK, so this is how it's going to be. Maybe I can start auditioning. I wasn't there for the curriculum. I wasn't there for Keith, is in short what I'm driving. I'm there for work. And slowly, the project keeps getting punted, punted. And finally, in the spring of 2007, I kind of have not a fight with Mark, but I'm like, what the fuck?

17:12
Like, this is my life. Like, you know, what's going on here? You know, I have that moment. He's apologetic. He's like, look, and he starts working on another project, which I'm peripherally involved with. And I'm like, okay, if the work's happening, I'm okay. You know, like, and so I go to the president of the company. I go, look, I don't want you guys paying for anything anymore. It just didn't feel right. I felt like I was, you know, getting a free ride and I'm someone who wants to earn their shit. And, you know, that just feels better.

17:40
You know, it just feels better to earn and like not be dependent. So I kind of take myself off the teat and I'm on my own there. And it just feels better. I don't want to be. I don't want to owe anyone. Right. And. Then as a group of people that want to start, you know, building in New York City, and I got to I don't know if you've ever been to Albany, New York, but it's, you know, it's uninhabitable during the winter and it's just it's a one horse town. It's not a place I wanted to spend my time in Rochester.

18:08
It's a similar vibe. Let's choose New York since the Erie Canal wasn't relevant and everything just kind of pieced out. Exactly. So I started auditioning in New York and eventually we opened a center there in I think 2009. So I'm like, okay, I'm back in New York. I'm still involved with the organization. I go back and forth to Albany a lot. We've got projects working on. Then I end up running a lot of the New York City stuff. And so I think in my mind,

18:37
from like 2010 to 11 to when we left, I'm a guy that's teaching the curriculum in New York. I'm going to Los Angeles. I'm going to Vancouver. My wife and I, we started dating in 2010, 2011, right? So now I'm going back and forth to Vancouver because now she has a center in Vancouver, right? I was very instrumental in helping her get stuff set up there and now I'm living a lifestyle that's like, okay, cool, I'm traveling a lot. So I'm not auditioning anymore.

19:07
So the thing that I originally went out to go do, I'm no longer pursuing my goals. And the very reason I got into taking this curriculum in the first place, I'm no longer doing. So my dreams are on the side. And it's a slow process. It was a slow process of slowly making the organization more important than your own dreams and goals. And I started to get frustrated with that, because I was always torn. Imagine having a goal and then

19:35
you're helping other people achieve theirs. Yeah. And so that kind of relationship started to wear on me. And I felt the time kind of being emptying out. And my aspirations and things that I wanted weren't being fulfilled. And every time I went to address it, it was like, well, what about the organization and your other goals? Which if, and I had a conversation in 2012 where I almost left with someone. It says like, look.

20:03
We're building this organization that's supposed to be inspiring change and doing all those things, but I don't see it happening So I has I was having these conversations Five years before I left and I was like if you think we're changing the world we're throwing rocks at tanks Was the curriculum changing through this whole evolution, you know, yes. Yeah. Well, there was more companies, right? So then he starts a genesse Which was the women's group

20:30
In hindsight, he starts that in 2005, which I think was really Keith's way of being like, now I have access to the women and I can indoctrinate the women. Now at the time we felt, so this is how it was built. We live in a very male dominated female influence world. Fair enough.

20:52
We can all agree on that. And for whatever reasons that happened, men had to go out and kill and hunt and build the structures of the world while women were more nurturing. And they became more of an authority in that, and men became authority in what they became. It was for survival. And so if you subscribe to the notion that society is set up somewhat on our primitive impulses, that imbalance is what we're living with right now. Jeunesse, the soft kind of, is an organization that seeks to define women's power unencumbered by what?

21:21
men define it as. Fair enough. That's noble. That's purposeful. No one would argue with those content points. So you understand the indoctrination. You understand the hook. You understand why people would fall for these things because nobody's thinking this guy's setting up Janess just basically to get laid. Right. And the people around him, which you ended up seeing in a lot of the documentaries, fortified this narrative every time someone like me would go, hold on a second.

21:50
hold on a second. They told us he was celibate. So this persona was propped up that unless you were directly around him, you didn't see anything otherwise, which is what allowed him to gain influence over a lot of people because there was a big conglomerate of people, mostly women, that fortified the narrative that he was this person. Now, it didn't come without it's like, really? Hmm. You know, like, not everyone was like drank the

22:18
It's supposed to be an insensitive turn drink in the Kool-Aid, but I'm gonna use it just because I think most people I think they get it or talking about no not everyone went in going, you know Yeah, sign me up a lot of people were like fuck that I'm out I've seen this before a lot of people were like hmm. You had to convince a little bit more So it's a case-by-case thing Ultimately, you know, it was a case where he abused his power got people around him to propagate a narrative about who he was and when challenged people

22:47
people like me were lied to by people I trusted and were friends with that I never would have thought happened, so that's what led to the ultimate DOS branding and all that stuff. It was a 10, 15 year for some people indoctrination, and then at a certain point, when the red flags came up, I kind of felt like I didn't challenge them anymore. The organization had my trust.

23:17
and my loyalty until I saw with my own eyes, that shit's not what you guys are saying. And then that's when I kind of went postal. But it sounds like from the get go, you're a little bit of a rebel in disguise within the organization. Yeah, so I was somewhat vocal about it. I was vocal with people around me. When people go, well, I'm going to Albany to work on this. I go, don't go to Albany. Don't go there. Stay here. Do your goals. And I think.

23:47
The organizations, the centers in say Mexico, Mexico's Monterey, Los Angeles, Vancouver, they were goals programs. If you went into those centers, you would have been like, yeah, this is fine. This is people coming once a week to work on their goals. And that's kind of what I felt like it was. It was a corporation. It was a business. The other thing is I think it's a case by case thing. Certain people are only susceptible to a certain point. And you see it in a lot of organizations. You see it in religion. Not everyone becomes a priest.

24:17
people show up on Sundays. Yeah. Right. So it's kind of, you know, Hey, I got this, I got this out of it and I can, I can go. Also, I wasn't targeted. I wasn't targeted. I wasn't a young hot, hot girl. I wasn't a guy. I was a guy probably kept peripheral intentionally because I would probably be a good spokesperson. Yeah. You had credibility. Yeah. Yeah. That's, you know, that's, that's since how I figured out how I was abused, not used, abused.

24:44
and strategically. Why I was sought after in LA to come back and work on a film that was never going to happen, I probably won't ever know. So was that all an act? I think it was. Do you know? I mean, look, I think Mark really wanted to make a film. I think Mark was ambitious to make a film. But the way it works with these people, whatever you want to call them, narcissistic sociopaths or whatever.

25:13
is I would keep someone like you involved peripherally because you have a company that could promote me. And when you came to visit me, I'd tell you exactly what you wanted to hear. And you'd leave thinking we were working on something. And then if something went wrong, I'd have a pretty good reason as to why it wouldn't go wrong. Until finally after a year or two, you'd go, this guy's hot air. He doesn't do anything. That happened a lot too. People would come to town.

25:38
They'd be working on a project and then they'd leave after a year or two because it didn't happen. And then when you go ask why they left the powers that be around Keith ago, well, they didn't want to work their issues. What the fuck does that mean? You brought you you bring them there to work on a project. Their issues aren't really what they're there to work on. And that's not what I was there to work on when I went to work on a film. But ultimately, it became something that I kind of got gaslit into. But I also felt like, hey, if this is work, I'm just going to tow the line.

26:07
a little bit until I recognized, you know, I recognize when I would go back to complain to the organization and hold them accountable that they just always had an arbitrary reason. Was this multi-level marketing though? I mean, that's what it gets classified as. Like the whole... You know, in short, yes. But when that was challenged, that was always the weird thing about the quote unquote career paths in there. You could do a career path through...

26:36
Doing one-on-one called what they're called EMS with people Which I wasn't interested in or teaching I like teaching the goals aspects My favorite part about it was working with what we called the GVL, which I know you have a t-shirt I'm not sure what that means Greenville Greenville, okay, so it was called goals and values lab and I ran one in New York Vancouver and was starting one in LA

27:01
And basically people would come with their goals and help them with their next steps and what the missing resource was. I loved doing that. I loved kind of figuring out the riddle of why people weren't achieving things. And it kind of lends to like playing quarterback when like working with people, you kind of get a sense of people and what they need. And I liked being the guy that could see that and help them with that. That was fun for me. That was really where I went with it. And then there was, you could run a center, which is what my wife did. And then enrollment.

27:30
So the enrollment, ultimately, as I've come to learn, is multi-level marketing, but they didn't say it as such. And the reason they didn't say it was that is because they said multi-level marketing stole the value from people who were actually producing it. And our organization made sure that the people producing the value got compensated for their effort. So he prided himself in having these complex, multi-level marketing things that always rewarded people's effort, or compensated people's effort ethically.

28:00
And so we kind of were at our worst, sanctimonious and self-righteous about that. Right. Um, and I think everyone at a certain point kind of felt that way about it, but we didn't see ourselves as multilevel marketers. In fact, we thumbed our noses at multilevel marketing concepts. So how did, I mean, so when did things start going south? I mean, completely, obviously you obviously were kind of a doubting, you know, doubting Thomas all along.

28:25
to a degree. To a degree. I mean, I never doubted the intent of the company though. I just felt like it was an inept company down to how people got paid, down to admin, down to how people were supported, down to the functionality of things. I didn't realize that all those things were intentional so that the people running the organization would always be busy putting out fires. And that's what a size two path does. They just basically create problems for everyone to be putting out.

28:52
So I was always disillusioned and disenfranchised with that aspect of the company Always from the get I felt like incompetent people were in charge of things that they shouldn't be Qualified with when we did get competent people say with Harvard business degrees or stuff like that They were gaslit into thinking that's a traditional way that doesn't work. We like to work with the person you're all about results Just shit like that went on all the time. I'd be like, what the fuck are we talking about? This guy is a Harvard business degree

29:20
He's smarter than anyone here, but that was a threat. So his skill set or ability was then pitched as a liability to the company. Very manipulative shit like that went on all the time. And people were promoted somewhat out of integrity. Someone would get a position of power over someone who was way more qualified than they. And then the structure of the hierarchy would crumble as a result. Because that

29:50
a lot of disenfranchisement, a lot of disillusion if like I come in and I start running your company and you're way more qualified than I am. That just doesn't create a positive atmosphere. So if it's, I've always said this, if it was an army or a platoon, morale was always low. And so that just doesn't lend well to growing anything. And I felt that and I was sensitive to that and I had a problem with that. And I would be in Mark's year and I'd be in my wife's year because they were on the center owners.

30:18
And I'd be like, that's a problem. This person shouldn't be here. You fire them. But you couldn't fire people in the company. So that was always kind of like one of the things I had a problem with. And I had one foot out the door towards the end because I was starting to audition more. And I was producing a web series that I was working on. And then ultimately, when this DAS women's group started, was when that was it.

30:47
there was no more debates, there was no more like, and then it's kind of the moment of when I saw that, all the other stuff that I had a problem with and all the other things that I kind of got a hint of and a feel for, right, made sense. And when I say had a feel for, if you're in a, if you're working in an atmosphere that has dark forces,

31:14
imbuing it, informing it or whatever, you're going to feel it on some level. Right? Now, whether you can articulate or pinpoint where it's coming from and how is a totally different thing. Yeah. Right? You know, and take, for example, what's going on in our world right now. There's a lot of dark forces going on right now, sometimes dressed up as altruism. Right? They've got the uniform and the makeup of altruistic movements. But if you start to

31:42
look underneath the forces, they're dark and they're seedy. Most good people don't think that's going on because they don't have that kind of psychology, right? Which allows that dark psychology to thrive is because most people don't even know to ask the question of why are you branding someone. Well, it doesn't even occur to most people. The abuse of powers don't really occur to those kind of people at all. So it allows good people to unwittingly promote something that's dark.

32:10
When you see the thing that's negative, it becomes, it's the, you know those, what do you call them? Those pictures where the hologram's hidden. Oh yeah. It becomes that moment and you can't unsee it. And then the forces that you've been feeling and the negative things that have been going on become way more clear to you. And then that informs your action. Like it goes from, and that's a mind fuck transition.

32:40
Just, just, just so you go from a believer to holy shit. I was, I've been doing the, I've been aligned with something that's dark. And then you're left with your own morality and what to do. And for me, I was, you know.

32:58
I wanted to flip some tables. I wanted to fuck. You wanted to punch some people in the face? Yeah. My wife and my family were put in danger and I also knew that a lot of people around me were still in the indoctrination and I had to be sensitive to that. They were still my friends. I didn't want to inflict pain, but my first thing was I need to get my wife and child out of harm's way and I'm going to go rattle as many cages as I can. And then...

33:28
let the authorities do their work and they did in an amazing way and they exposed things that I couldn't even imagine. What was the, you know, you talk about, you know, getting out of harm's way and, you know, for everyone that doesn't know, you haven't maybe seen or heard the entire story of all this and we're going to, you know, tell people where to find all that at the end. But the, but what was, you talked about, I mean, some of it like.

33:58
What was really happening that made you practically figure for your life or your family's life? Or like just, what was happening? Was it just how powerful they were or just the influence? You nailed it. I recognized I was dealing with a powerful force that if they wanted to, and they wanted to turn their guns on me, my wife, could. And they could do it legally.

34:26
And legally is, I put in air quotes, that is the banner of morality they hide behind so they can do their abuses. Does that make sense? So they can come after us under this faux dressed up principle of we've.

34:46
wronged them, we've done things unjustly, and Keith is going to flex how he upholds his principles in the world in a very altruistic way while abusing people the entire time. And if I can really impart what the force is, it's different than traditional tit for tat, if that makes sense. It's

35:16
It's not an overt abuse. It's not like, you know, I punch you. Right. It's, OK, I'm going to do it. It's an abuse of the mind. It's abuse of the soul, if you will. Right? So he sucks people's souls while pretending to empower them. Right? And

35:38
That's when I recognized, holy shit, this guy's built a whole entire persona, a whole different entire things and it's, and he's, and he's abusing people. And so the first thing you do, the first thing I did is I just, you got to get out of the clutches of it physically out of, out of any sort of range. So you can recoup.

35:58
you can strategize and we had we had and for those people don't know um mark vicente and his wife left before we did and that's really when i knew i was gone because i knew something was was wrong things i'd seen mark a month before he left i could feel it and i knew he wasn't telling me something but i didn't know what and and he knew he couldn't tell me directly what it was because i probably wouldn't have believed it

36:20
So he was very strategic in how he told Sarah, and he was very strategic in how he told me about the abuses that were going on with the women. And he didn't know all of them. He didn't know everyone was branded. He didn't know there was a women's group that was going around and doing all these things. So it had been going on for probably about two or three years, which, incidentally, we all had a feel that something weird was going on, but I didn't live in Albany, so I didn't get to see it every day. And also it was people losing a lot of weight really quickly.

36:47
that I just looked at and go, that's your goal, that's your life, who am I to tell you that losing weight and all that stuff shouldn't be your goal? It wasn't my problem and I was in Auburn and I was out. So the forces that I felt like I was dealing with were dark and it wasn't something I could go intellectually talk people out of, if that makes sense.

37:12
They were heavily indoctrinated. You're talking to people that have a dogma behind them and think they're right. And who they're defending at all costs, it didn't really matter. And when you're in that kind of space, I've seen they're willing to go ruin people's lives in the name of Allah, if you will, right? They don't think that what they're doing is abusive.

37:38
And that's dangerous. You're dealing with something that, you know, you have to understand what you're looking at when you see that. And it's extreme. So I felt like, okay, that's the problem. What I'm seeing right now in physical evidence is a physical manifestation of the emotional abuses that I feel like have been going on the entire time and couldn't articulate, right? So.

38:03
In a lot of ways the physical manifestation of those abuses are the thing that took it down in a lot of ways we were lucky to have that because There's no intellectual debate about branding someone in the pubic area with your initials the conversations over at that point Yeah, and I was gonna make sure it was over. I wasn't gonna get into oh well they agreed to it no fuck you this shit stops with me and I don't know what I would have done and I don't say this

38:32
to be a tough guy. I don't, you know, and then I certainly don't want to use, I didn't want to use violence to handle my problems. I think once you do that, you put yourself in a category and domain of lack of credibility, and you create a whole slew of other problems for yourself. But if we were gonna get, if the, if the police or FBI wasn't gonna do their job, and we're gonna get tied up in litigation with Claire Bronfman's abusive regime, I can't, I don't know what I would've done. Because I knew where they all lived.

39:01
How many women ended up getting branded? So we don't have the official tally, but I think it's in the range of 20. And they claim there was like a hundred women, um, that were in it, but most of them didn't know what was going on. How did I just once, I just don't know if he's, once you start doing that, I just don't know how he, I guess envisioned it going down, like he was just that brash.

39:28
This was my letter. Well, he will look here. You see this with everyone, right? You see this with dogmatic leaders everywhere. Once you start to get away with all this stuff, you create a belief that you can do anything and read your history books. Yeah. Right. And some of them have, I mean, you know, you look at, and I've read, he's also a history major in school. And one of the most fascinating, um, courses I took in college was on Russian history and.

39:57
There was a poll done in like 1990, 1991 about Joseph Stalin, and 51% of the population still saw him in a favorable light. Now, the body count on Joseph Stalin, we don't know yet. It's in the 20 million, right? So that's very telling, right? These people think they can get away with it, and they get a conglomerate of people around them that agree with them, and then they're afraid to say anything otherwise. So it's a culture of fear.

40:27
masquerading as altruism. And I think they lose touch. They lose touch with like, you have a billionaire heiress that can protect you. You lose touch with the reality of your abuses. You lose touch with the reality of what you can get away with and you've seen it in other things with Jim Jones. And that was my letter to Nancy, when the president of the company, when we got out, it's like, what was the next step with us? Where was this headed? Like if it's an algorithm. Right.

40:55
Right? You know, you take an algorithm of someone who's 15 years old, has really good habits. They say they want to be an athlete. They've got things. You can extrapolate out that, hey, this person might end up in 10 years in a professional league based on those habits. You're branding women. You're having blowjob sessions.

41:12
you have a secret group that they can only have sex with you, extrapolate that algorithm five, ten years from now. Where the fuck is that going? Yeah, exactly. Do you know what I mean? And there was already two women very close to this guy who died of kind of rare cancers. And they were two women that were extremely healthy. Like, you know, didn't put anything bad into their bodies. Now, I don't know their genetic disposition, but I also know they're very healthy and mindful. So these aren't accidents.

41:40
And I don't think these any of this stuff is coincidence. So when, once I really took inventory on that, you know, there was no way I was going to throw every punch I could to end it within my, within my power. And that's became really, that really became, you know, Mark Vicente, his wife, Bonnie, my life and my wife's life for a better part of, you know, a year or two and still is in a sense of

42:09
You know, I told my wife, we're going to turn a negative into a positive. And it's not going to be easy because the hardest part is we need to discipline our psychologies, right? That the biggest thing, and I've been in situations like this before. It's like, you have to really condition yourself to be positive about this. And it didn't feel that way.

42:29
And it was waking up at three in the morning. It was waking up with like, shit, like how did I get involved with this? And at first it's a little bit of the humiliation. I just, I told my wife, we can't stay here long. Like we have to get out of this and our psychologies and turn our experience into wisdom and content so people can understand it. And our lane, whether we like it or not, isn't necessarily cults, it's abuses of power. And.

42:55
I don't think I'm going to be talking about cults for much longer. If I talk about cults and the abuses of power responsibly, this is going to segue into something else. And so our story is our power right now. And that's been somewhat of a difficult thing to embrace for just for a lot of reasons. But

43:22
I firmly believe a lot of times in life, you don't get to pick and choose how and what you're gonna stand for, what you're gonna stand for. It's what's ever in front of you. And that's gonna dictate your character a lot of the times, the adversity and how you handle it. And that's been the lesson of this whole thing. And hopefully, I can turn that lesson into some wisdom. And that's-

43:42
you know, what our podcast is about now. And whenever I sit down with someone, I just really, it's very important for me to stay in that lane until other lanes open up. And I feel like I'm an authority in that lane, if that makes sense. It does make sense. Yeah, cause I'm serving the story. So story doesn't serve me, right?

44:03
So, and, and my story is different than my wife's and everyone else's who's has been involved with it. So that's, that's been the lesson of this whole thing. And what episode are you got? How far are you into the, a little bit culty is the, so we're done with our first season. Okay. First season's over. So, uh, we had 13 episodes and how that came to be was one of, it is a great example of what to embrace and how to embrace it. Um,

44:29
I was looking forward to wrapping this thing up after the vow. I kind of felt like there was some exposure of, you know, I never wanted my personal life to be other people's entertainment. And I was somewhat reluctant. And I have a lot of friends who know me and talk to me, called me after. It's like it's really funny. Every shot of you, every cutaway of you is you shaking your head. So I was like, yeah, you know, it wasn't, I hadn't also necessarily reconciled, you know.

44:58
my trauma so much and I really wasn't comfortable showing that all the time. Until I recognized, a lot of times when they'd ask me questions, I was like, I can answer this and I can answer this responsibly, I think. I can answer this without being pissed off or I can answer this like, where I think this is good content for people out there that will help people. So ultimately, that's always the thing that was tugging at me. I also felt like

45:27
people telling the story inadequately or irresponsibly, I felt like that doesn't do the story justice. Let me answer that. And that might be presumptuous, but that's always gonna be the problem, right? Are you presumptuous to think that your story's interesting? Are you presumptuous to think it's gonna help people? And I decided to err on the side of giving it a shot.

45:57
you know, I come from, you know, we live in a generation where tick tock Instagram and all that stuff. Attention is the objective a lot of the times and I can remember

46:13
When I was like in fifth or sixth grade, I scored a touchdown and I started celebrating the end zone in the car ride home. My dad said, act like you've been there before. So I come from a generation of, you know, don't seek the spotlight. Don't like. So there's that conflict of, you know, attention is the value and the objective sometimes. The attention ought to be the effect.

46:32
of your pursuits and other be you when you sit down with someone, the attention you're getting is the fact of some sort of pursuit that you have or some sort of objective value that people want to hear. So I've always kind of wrestled with that. And when we were approached about the podcast, I'll say this, you know, we had some dark forces pulling out of pulling at us. And when we got out, the light showed up. And it showed up in spades, it showed up in the

46:59
the directors of the vow, just in terms of their sensitivity to the story, the questions they ask. And then we had some really great citizens of sound as the people that produced our podcast. And they said, look, your story is amazing. We think you should do a podcast. And I just said, no, I'm done. And Sarah was like, we were both kind of done. And then another woman who was our associate producer, a woman named Jess Tardy, who was familiar with the story, pitched us on a whole idea. And

47:28
Well, I looked at Sarah. That's actually not a bad idea We can just riff and we did and it started to grow and we are negotiating a contract for a second season right now Which will start in probably a couple weeks. I love it man. So what else you have to universe provided? What else are you to well like two kids dominate my time? I'll tell you that so I love that. I love my kids You know, I I look at them as they're gonna be you know, hopefully

47:55
reap the benefits of our wisdom. I audition probably two, three times a week. So I've been doing a lot of that. In this podcast, we didn't know we were taking a bite out of, it takes up a lot of time. So, it was perfect timing in terms of COVID because we basically had an opportunity fall right into our living room where we could do it. So that's been great. So being a good dad is what I've been trying to do.

48:25
and you know, podcast and auditioning a lot. And you know, there's other stuff that we're kicking around right now, but I think just dominate what's in front of you as much as you can. What would you tell people that are listening? You know, like, I wanted to have you on to hear the other side of where business goes south and how people get drawn in and all those things and all the wonderment that was your story. I...

48:50
What would you tell people, you know, because now, like you mentioned, you know, the world we live in with attention and all these things, so the opportunity is even greater for something like this to, it's probably happening right now, we don't even know it, or, you know, someone knows it. But what would you tell someone, you know, that's listening, you know, like, what to, obviously you're a smart guy, you were looking out for it, you always had this tug.

49:17
of some negative energy that was going on with it. But is there anything you tell people that are kinda might be going through it or having that potential? The question I hear you asking is what are the red flags and kind of what are some of the precursors and stuff like that? Because we're in an age where the traditional

49:46
Job cycles aren't what they are and there's a lot of people inventing gigs online in the economic situation The pressures are somewhat more acute than previous generations, right which make you somewhat susceptible, right? And there's not a lot of clear pathways to do Your jobs that are somewhat obsolete now and it was different 20 years ago But it was the precursor for what's going on right now. So you see a lot of these people Propagating themselves as people that they're not

50:15
And I think that's becoming way more exposed because it's just saturated with it. So, um, I would say a couple of things. Number one, trust your gut. Right. Um, and there's a couple of delineations in that because one of the first things they told us is like, if, if this feels bad, it probably means it's working. Right. So, you know, that comes with a caveat, right? Um,

50:44
I would find people that are doing what you want to do at the highest level and figure out what they do, you know, in terms of a pursuit. If you come across someone who's somewhat of a claims as a prophet and makes bold assertions about themselves, that's a pretty good indication that they're not that a lot of times. If you try to challenge and ask questions and get pushback and get gaslit and gets flipped around on you, that's a pretty good indication that you're, it's something to run from.

51:16
And I would, if something feels bad, I would not move forward until it feels better. Meaning, this is a problem, why is this a problem? Like, there is certain things that I handed the responsibility of interrogation off to someone I felt like it had done it for me, if that makes sense. I would go, what is this they're saying about him here? And they'd give me an explanation back, and because I trusted them and all that stuff,

51:45
I'll go, okay, and I would accept it. To me, when I look back on my responsibility, that's the biggest mistake I had because I had some questions. I went to people that I trusted, but I didn't recognize that they were indoctrinated into towing the company line. And that cost me probably 12 years of my life because I didn't go back and really like, and a lot of it was like,

52:15
somewhat laziness on my part and somewhat like I trust them You know and and and that and that you know that cost me and you know It's going back to the specific points of when that happened. It's hard. It's hard to figure out My one of my mentors always told me it is you don't have to apologize for trusting but verifying Right trust verify it right exactly. That's You nailed it. And so, you know

52:45
It isn't to say I don't trust anymore. I trust differently. And one of the things that I am very, very sensitive to right now, and I point it out to my wife every time I see it, is the loading of language. We get into a lot of some of these in our podcasts and how it looks.

53:06
But our story doesn't mean anything if we can't take our experience and kind of relate it to what's going on in other domains and other hierarchies, because the abuses of power that went on in our organization aren't proprietary to cults. Right. And the loading of language is one that I see right now, particularly, and not to pick and delineate on the political correctness that's going on right now, where if you control the words and you control

53:36
the dialogue in that way. It means you control the thoughts and it means you control the nature of where the conversation is going to go. And that leads to thoughts which lead to behaviors. And you see it a lot going on in our school systems right now and you see a lot of these dogmatic behaviors going on right now that I just went through. And so I think if I can make

53:58
my story worth anything. It's really, really be responsible with how I articulate how those things work and how they can seep their way into the psychology of not just our mainstream media, but our schools. And, you know, it's not too long after our schooling systems, bad ideas permeate into our culture. It takes a generation. It takes very, it's very quick. And I see a lot of that stuff going on right now. And the number one effect of it is division.

54:27
You know, so, you know, that's one of the things I'm super sensitive to right now. And that might change, you know, but that's the one right now where I just feel like they're controlling language, which controls thoughts, which controls behavior. And that. That's what happened. Slippery slope. Yes. So, you know, and you asked me in three to six months, it might be something different. But right now, that's that's what I would really get people to do. And go read.

54:58
Read a lot. Read people you disagree with. Read them a lot. And if you're 20, 25, even 30, stay on that journey. It's yours. And not anyone else is to dictate. But I just find reading just expands your entire, and gives you a bigger template to.

55:27
compare and contrast and don't stop reading. Don't stop for sure. Yeah, no, I'm teaching my seven-year-old to read right now and he's going through the frustration of it. And I said, listen, you get over this hump.

55:42
It opens up an entire world for you. Oh, yeah So, you know Anthony I really appreciate all your openness and wisdom Yeah and coming on where can people keep up with everything? Watch the vowel so HB o HB o max max So there's the vowel and there's season two that's coming out

56:06
I think in November-ish, we're not sure, because they're always editing and stuff like that. Of a little bit culty, right? No, devout. A little bit culty, you can go onto all the main. Google a little bit culty, and it'll come up. You can come up. And we have great guests on there. We have the Scientology story on that as well. A lot of people, ex-members, a lot of experts.

56:33
That can answer a lot of the questions you asked me very, very clinically. And we have 13 episodes there and then we have our season two, which will be coming out probably in the next couple of months. Time it up with the vow. You can follow us on a little bit culty and Instagram. And that's it.

56:55
Cool, man. Really appreciate you coming on and yeah. Thanks for having me. I appreciate you, uh, giving me a platform to share my story. My pleasure. And, uh, Hey guys, we really appreciate Anthony Ames coming on. He just told you where to find them. Go check out a little bit culty and check out the vowel. You know where to find us with the radcast.com at the.rad.cast on Instagram. And I'm at Ryan Alford on all the platforms. We'll see you next time.