00:00
values have become a driver of consumer behavior. People are now making decisions based on, does that company share my values? The challenge is to, I think, really decide what you stand for, what you truly believe in, and then how you leverage that given the fact that so many people seem to care about that these days. Ultimately, cancel culture is something that we will have to learn to live with, right?

00:27
Brands and people will need to understand and manage their way through it. You're listening to the Radcast. If it's radical, we cover it. Here's your host, Ryan Alford.

00:46
Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast. I'm Ryan Alford, your host. Today, we have a unique perspective, my friends. We're getting a little different today, I'll say. One, on two levels. One, I have one of my favorite clients. I have to say that on. And two, someone I highly respect in talking about a topic that might be actually unique in the perspective that not a lot of people are talking about it.

01:16
on their podcast, but you're hearing and reading a lot about it in the news. I'm excited to get after it. Barry Silverman, welcome to the show. Thanks, Ryan. Glad to have you. Barry is the VP of marketing and branding at Ultra Fabrics, the world's best faux leather. I'm gonna call it faux even though everybody thinks that's funny, but polyurethane leather, I don't wanna get, we're not gonna go down that avenue, but this is amazing. Talking McLaren, we're talking certain things I can't even name.

01:45
It's so exciting, but Barry, hey, look, you see that I'm actually pumping it up, Ultra Fabrics. Thank you, thank you. We are in a lot of different brands. We work with some of the bigger, more exciting design forward brands in the world. I know, and we're honored to be an agency partner and appreciate your business. But more than that, I appreciate your perspective and your opinion. And let's start down that path, Barry. Let's talk.

02:14
a little bit about your background and then we'll build towards today's topic, which is a hot button, certainly in the business world. Sure. So my background, I'd say you could summarize really in that it is about brands, right, or branding. And when I was younger earlier in my career, I sort of fell in love with what brands could be, the strategy behind it, the beauty.

02:40
the artisan quality of brands and their impact on culture. So I've had a couple stints at two major global brand consulting firms, the first being Future Brand, the second being my last firm, which is Interbrand. And I've had a few stints on the client side as well. But all of my work and my career really has focused on brands right now as the VP of Marketing and branding for a major global textile company that

03:09
is very much about our brand and designs. So I've built a career in that. I've also taught at the university level, the graduate level for almost 20 years now. I've taught in branding and integration, branding and integrated communication programs. I've taught at NYU, I've taught at Fairleigh Dickinson University in New Jersey, San Francisco State University of San Francisco, and the City College of New York. Currently I'm also going for my PhD.

03:38
Uh, and doing my dissertation work now on an idea about brand, uh, and then maybe someday becoming a full-time academic, we'll see, uh, but that's been the summary of my career. I love it, Barry. I didn't even know all I knew the academia. I knew the brand side of the corporate side did not know the PhD. Uh, I admire all the work. Cause I know how hard you're working at Holter fabrics and to keep your hands and all those other things.

04:05
Uh, is a lot. I mean, what's, what is that balance like? I mean, I, you know, we'll get towards the topic, but you, that's juggling a lot of balls, isn't it? Yeah, it is hard. I've been shipping away at it for almost seven years now. And I'm finally at my dissertation point. So, you know, I find time nights, weekends, when I can, it's all writing and research at this point, so it is hard. It is hard. Some days I think I'm never going to get through it, but eventually I'll get there. It is interesting because I have friends in the academia world.

04:34
that teach in marketing and branding, like at Clemson and a few other places. And it's interesting the perspective of the academia side versus the real world side of branding and marketing, like every day. I feel like some academia has gotten better at burgeoning those two. Probably helps having a professor like yourself or a teacher that's been in it, and has one leg in one of each.

05:04
I mean, have you noticed that difference between, you know, the textbook in the real world? Yeah, but you know, at the graduate level, especially, we try to merge the two. Yeah. Right. So, you know, at the graduate level, it's all about case studies. It's all about current activity, modern day examples. So I think depending on the school, but most I think merge those two pretty well. The undergraduate level tends to be a little bit more about theory, the fundamentals, the basics. You're using a textbook.

05:33
And then once you have that foundation, you know, as I said, the more advanced you get, the closer those two things come. Yep. I think I never got my masters and maybe I got my, uh, my PhD in the real world. As I tell people, I cut my teeth, uh, as a junior account executive at an agency. But, uh, uh, but I do respect, uh, and watch how hard my wife.

06:01
has her master's and every other degree you can in teaching and everything. And I respect the hell out of people that have done it even after the fact on top of a day job, so to speak. But Barry, I do wanna transition. We did tee up like today's topic, which has been heavy in the news and elsewhere as companies start to have to play the role of really wearing their belief systems on their sleeves or not.

06:31
but more and more are, and the delicate balance, I know you and I talked about a recent article about Salesforce and them and their employees in Texas. And I just wanna tee up your thoughts and maybe just start with your perspective as it's kinda started to come across your screen. Yeah, so I think what's been happening and why this is important and why this is really fascinating is that in the last...

06:58
say five years because of the political climate in this country, politics has changed, very much so, in that it's moved from not just a political point of view, but to be representative of values, okay, what you value, what's important to you. So it's no longer a discussion just about politics. It's what you believe in, right? And that is some of the reason of the great divide that exists and continues to widen

07:27
within our culture today. And so what's been happening too with companies, with brands, is that they've always had values, right? You know, values, mission statement, things like that have been part of corporate culture for years, but they've existed more so as a process of something we sort of had to do. And what transition has happened there now is that values have become a driver of consumer behavior.

07:56
Right? So people are now making decisions based on, does that company share my values? Right? Do I feel comfortable supporting a company such as this? So you've got these two seismic shifts that has happened, both the idea that our contemporary world is very much about values, and then values becoming an important consumer driver. So brands now being in a position to say, should we A,

08:22
Be quiet not say anything not express a belief system Be should we take a side right and if so how far should we dig into that right? How authentic can we really be and then see what side should that be you know? Where am I gonna land and these are all very important questions I think brands are now asking themselves and the example that we spoke about was sales for Salesforce calm you know they clearly

08:52
determine what they believe their audience values, and then made a very big statement about what they're doing in Texas by basically saying that they will pay to relocate employees located in Texas if they believe that the state of Texas no longer aligns with that employee's values, considering some of the recent laws that have been passed there lately. It's fascinating. And that was a perfect summary of kind of what's been going on. And

09:20
My biggest question though is to your point, if Salesforce is, I think in the top five employers in the US, if not top 10, I mean, they're a gigantic employer in the US. And you have to believe and know that some percentage of their employee force is, you know, hard, true, right-leaning Christians. And then-

09:50
So if it's not 50-50, I would guess it's 60-40 one way or the other. And the other is on the other side, probably maybe democratic, left leaning, maybe believe in women's rights before everything else or, you know. So how do they, how do companies like that make that divide and not risk offending a large percentage of their base?

10:16
Sure. Well, I think what Salesforce did was pretty smart because they didn't necessarily firmly take a position. They said, we're going to be about our employees. And if you now feel uncomfortable, that's doing this will help you move out of that state. They weren't necessarily saying, you know, we are, you know, against abortion or things like that for some brands. However, it gets a little trickier where they very much put a stake in the ground. And it is easier for some brands than others. Right? So you take a brand like Patagonia, for example,

10:46
So Patagonia for a long time was very much about the environment, was about the outdoors, right? So the issue of climate change was a very easy cause for them to champion, right? And then they had some choices to make, and they went pretty far in making almost political statements because they believed that their audience were going to support them, and they have. And every time they've come out firmly against an administration's position,

11:14
regarding climate change, they've watched sales blips, they've watched interest, they've seen engagement go up. So they have a clear position. So it was pretty clear for them. It gets a little trickier when you have, a Starbucks as an example that closed down, if you remember all their stores because they had a racial incident in one of their stores and they had to make a statement, they retrained employees about cultural sensitivity and all that.

11:42
And then you have a Nike, right, who basically decides to put Colin Kaepernick's face as the forefront of their brand, a very strong statement, you know, again, amidst the Black Lives Matter movement, but Nike being the savvy marketer that they are, realized that their audience would very much appreciate this statement. And yes, they may lose some people as a result of taking a firm political stance and having that point of view.

12:10
but to them it supported the values that their brands stand for, what they believe in and their purpose as an organization. Do you think, excellently put, brought a ton of really valuable examples there, Barry. The thing that hits me is like, the news cycle's so short now, you know? And I'm wondering, are we really in an age of brands taking a position or...

12:39
Are these momentary, they know that they might take two steps back to take five forward. Are they momentary blips, like Colin Kaepernick, for example, in Nike, you know, like, I know a ton of people that that offended that said they'd never buy Nike again. But just like everything else, the news cycle's fleeting. And the next thing I know, they have a Tiger Woods Polo on or whatever, you know, from golf. So it's like, do brands, are they really taking a firm forever stance?

13:09
Or are they feeding into the narrative of the moment in the news cycle? Well, I think that there's blips and activity and energy around it. But I think for the most part, there is a longer lasting impact. So I'll give you a couple of other examples. Dick Sporting's Dick Sporting goods decided that they are no longer going to sell assault rifles and no longer sell guns to anyone under the age of 21.

13:39
Right, it was a big, big position for a retailer. Now guns represent about 10% of their sales, which is not small, but they decided that because of gun violence in this country, they had a responsibility, right? So it's another interesting question. How far does a brand's responsibility go, right? So in essence, is culture shaping brands or is brand shaping culture or is it a combination of the both, right?

14:05
Now what happened with Dick's Sporting Goods is the NRA took a big stance against Dick's, came out against them, big, big PR campaign condemning the company and the brand. And for the last year or so, analysts have been watching their stock, which has been steady, maybe declining a little bit, I think. I'm not exactly sure, but sales have been rising. So they're trying to understand the business impact of that position, which yes, there

14:35
but I think it's a longer term commitment that they're making to take a position and stay there and then realize the impact. Yeah, yeah, good points. I think I still come back to this notion of, marketing and branding as you know, has these cycles of different things. And are we in a period of, is this important forever? Because, Gen Zers and-

15:03
that generation is being raised to care about these things? Or are we in a, is this just a period of, because I feel like if we did an exploratory, I don't know, you being an academia and branding longer than me would probably be able to answer this, but like, were there periods in the 80s and early 90s and 70s where marketing went through this same thing and then it kind of went full circle, instead of belief-based, it was product-based?

15:33
brand-based, like are we in a cycle or that's gonna change? Or is this sticking? That's hard to know, because I'm not a futurist. But what I would tell you is that, what I mentioned earlier, that younger consumers especially are making choices on brands because of what those brands value. And...

15:53
I think even our own company, like for example, are launching a new mission and values and we're doing it very purposely, especially to employees. And we're doing it in a way that it's meaningful to us, ideally will be meaningful to our customers and even our partners such as yourself, because we want the world to understand both what we stand for, what we believe in and our purpose. So in our case, for example,

16:20
You had referred to earlier faux leather. Sometimes we refer to it as vegan leather. But look, I could run off tons of statistics around how leather, the farming for it, the manufacturing, the industrial process, is contributing to a terrible environmental situation. And our role in the world, we feel, is to help limit that to a large degree. It's an animal-free product, which a lot of people...

16:46
believe in now and are moving towards it. And so we're proud of that. We believe that our values enable that to a large degree. And so we want people to understand that. We want that to come across. So because consumers, I think, are looking at that more closely, the challenge really is authenticity. Right? Yeah. So I don't know if you remember this, but Pepsi did a…

17:14
an ad during the I think the Black Lives Matter movement when it was at its height. And they used one of the Cartashians, I think, or Kylie Jenner or someone like that. I think it was Khloe, Khloe Kardashian, I think. Maybe that's it. I remember exactly what you're talking about. Handing a Pepsi to a police officer. And they took so much heat for that because it was so unauthentic, right? It was such an obvious attempt at a brand.

17:40
you know, trying to take a position or showing what they stand for. But what they were clearly doing was just jumping on the coattails of a current movement instead of saying, this is embedded in our values. This is who we are as a company. This is what our senior executives believe in. Right. And so they got called out on that and I think had to come out and apologize. They pulled the ad very quickly. So, you know, the challenge is to, I think really decide what you stand for, what you truly believe in.

18:07
And then how you leverage that, given the fact that so many people seem to care about that these days. Yeah. And that's, that's really crucial. I think you nailed it on the authenticity. I think that's going to be the real guiding judge of who does this. Well, it does. I think Pepsi was a great example. I think there's been a few others, but I think that is the danger zone here because there's going to be, you know, the C-suite is going to have, you know, a knee jerk reaction, I think to certain things. And

18:36
It's going to be important for marketers and braining people to kind of keep a good guidepost for really what, what the company does stand for and what they truly have. Let's say money in the bank built up, cash a built up for as far as that believes to some, cause I think you're going to see a lot of players try to go down this space, but keeping it authentic will be the challenge. Yeah. And, and look, if you were a consumer brand.

19:03
and your target is a fairly under 30 audience, I don't see how you could ignore this. I really don't. I think that it's come to the point where consumers have already told us, right, there's plenty of research on the fact that they make choices based on a company sharing their values. They will move away from brands that they feel are acting irresponsibly, right? They will research these things. They will find out who is doing what, what causes you're supporting.

19:32
You know, I mean, this is becoming a critical element of the marketing process, I think, especially for some brands in certain categories. And as I mentioned earlier, the lesson for all brands in my mind is that your purpose, your values can always be important and now so more than ever as a vehicle for communicating your message. What do you think the balance is? We've talked about it a little bit, Barry, and you know, I agree.

19:59
We counsel a lot of brands on that exact point you just said. And what's the balance between how do they do this without, you know, I think Salesforce, to your point, didn't necessarily put their eggs in one basket or the other. They just gave an option to one side. I just wonder how we avoid, it's just driving me crazy now how.

20:26
You can't dislike Biden and not like Trump. You know what I mean? Like there's just black and whites when really we live in a gray world. And I'm just worried that how we find the balance of debate and not hate, you know? Yeah, yeah. And that's gonna be a really hard thing to do. I'll give you another example. So Delta Airlines decided,

20:55
not to include NRA members in a certain discount that they have. Again, they put a stake in the ground. And the state legislature of Georgia, where they're located, because they're an Atlanta-based company, came out very strongly against Delta, condemning the brand, telling people not to use them, claiming that the way that they're stomping on the Second Amendment is clearly not something that we will ever support. And we will impact the tax.

21:25
the amount of tax that they pay, right? I mean, they really had legislatures screaming about this because they felt that their constituency was one that was going to take offense to this. So Delta had a very difficult position, but they took a position. They decided this is who we are as a brand and this is who we wanna be. So to your point, unfortunately, it seems as the sides have been drawn, right?

21:52
whether those sides come together in sort of this common area, I'm not sure. I know it's difficult, right? I mean, if you're a brand like Delta, you have such a wide audience, you certainly want everyone to fly your airline. What do you do? But I do think that, you know, there is a different philosophy in corporate enterprise these days or for younger companies coming of age who believe that, you know, our business is not just about

22:21
a profit that although we have an obligation to our shareholders and an obligation to make money, there is something called corporate empathy and we can certainly engage in that and be a very successful brand. Yeah. And this is down a different path, Barry, but you're so damn smart. I want your opinion on it. You know, it's the notion of cancel culture.

22:46
You know, it's kind of semi-related here. We're kind of talking a little bit in the same camps. But I'm wondering, like, you know, it's just such a, I fear from my own children as the father of four boys that, don't get me wrong, there's certain mistakes that you make that you can, that you, maybe you don't deserve to come back from. But it's like, we live in this culture where, you know, we're all flawed as human beings, we all make mistakes.

23:14
And people are making or saying one bad thing that may not be representative of their full body of work. And then they're done for. You know? And in the same vein of just, who's judge, jury and executioner these days, I don't know. And I'm building towards a question, but I'm really wanting your perspective because I feel like it flies kind of in the same airspace.

23:43
Yeah, and it very much does. And I guess this is the thing that brands need to navigate a little bit, right? It's tricky. And there is a cancel culture out there and that's permeated by the mediums that people have access to, right? I mean, work could spread, you know, in 20 seconds and reach millions of people, right? All of a sudden, you know, the damage control is needed for something. I think that, you know, ultimately cancel culture is something that

24:13
we will have to learn to live with, right? Brands and people will need to understand and manage their way through it. To me personally, however, the lesson is to what we said earlier about authenticity, right? I mean, I think the mistake that most people make is not truly being authentic about their mistake or what they might've said.

24:40
I think people are generally forgiving. I think audiences will forgive if they believe that person. You know, the problem is, is that, you know, some jobs like politician have lost a lot of credibility. I mean, so, you know, they say, I'm really sorry, but are they gonna be believed? Most likely they have to work 10 times harder than your average Joe. And they've done that to themselves, right? I mean, that's just that industry.

25:06
So celebrities have a problem too because they're not always seen as authentic, right? So they make a mistake, they say the wrong thing. It's very difficult for them to come back, but that does happen and I've seen it happen. Wouldn't you've been like, I guess even starting with where you're at now, I mean, do you think employees and even yourself in your own experience, you've worked in several places in academia, clients at Brandside, have you felt safe and comfortable?

25:34
Along the way is that improved in your ability to maybe share your belief system?

25:41
That's a good question. You know, it's interesting because I'll be very honest about something that happened to me recently. Because of this great divide in our country that exists now, the aptitude to judge quickly is too great, right? Like when I move people from other states now, right, immediately I have an impression of them.

26:08
I don't even know these people from another state, but I might think, and I think they have an impression of me. Like I come from New York, and I imagine that when people hear that, there is an impression of what I'm like, what I believe in, who I am. And the real unfortunate thing is that we're making such snap judgments and not truly giving people the time to express themselves or even get to know somebody. And I'm guilty of that as well, and I really want to get better at.

26:35
you know, just being able to judge people as individuals because we're so, you know, I think tied to geography now and culture and how that culture is formed. Yeah, good points. I do wanna talk, cause you know, we close out a bit here. I wanna talk a little bit more about Ultra Fabrics. We're really proud to work with them and a lot of things they're doing.

26:57
They have a belief system, some of ours, I believe in sustainability and the, and, you know, it blows my mind, uh, you know, with the fact that it's taken this long for a quality product, this quality. And it's been certainly happening. It's certainly ultra fabric has had respect for a long time, but more of the industry, you know, especially when you think of automotive or other things, you know, leather being this high standard of luxury, but the reality of, of just the technology and innovation.

27:25
that Ultra Fabrics brings to the market. It's really exciting to work on and exciting, I know for you, in kind of telling these stories every day, right? Yeah, you know, it's interesting. My favorite story about our company is quite simply when I spoke to our owner about what she set out to do. You know, she was one of the founders of creating this company. What was it about? And she said that we wanted to make textiles sexy. That was it. And in those simple words,

27:55
I knew exactly what she meant and I realized that ultra fabrics is an idea as much as it is a business, right? And in our category, there is not a lot of sexiness, you know? So we have this amazing opportunity to do really interesting design forward things. That's what's most exciting for me, you know, in that there aren't a lot of brands that I think are.

28:19
pushing the envelope like we are in our category and trying to be artistic in everything we do. And now we have the permission to do that because ultimately she wanted to make textile sexy and I'm helping her do that. Yeah, you most certainly are. And I mean, textile is sexy. You look, Greenville, South Carolina, South Carolina, North Carolina, like textile capitals of the world. And let me tell you, it's not been sexy. Even though I spent six years in New York, I've worn all the hats.

28:48
It's not always been sexy, but Ultra Fabrics is certainly that. Can you talk about, I know we've got some exciting things planned. We've got some upcoming events and all that. We're not going to get into everything, but can you talk about any of the partnerships, you know, maybe that you're most proud of, that you can speak to for Ultra Fabrics? From our customer standpoint? Yeah, just your customers and the partnerships. I mean, I mentioned McLaren, which is sexy, but yeah.

29:15
So, in the automotive world, we work with Jaguar Land Rover. We're very proud to be a part of that brand. We are talking to some of the more progressive automotive companies in the world on the furniture side. We work with Herman Miller. We work with Steelcase. They're very big customers of ours, and they are defining the design of space in the future.

29:45
for the future. So we're excited to be part of brands like Steelcase, like Herman Miller, like Andrea World in the furniture business as well. Winnebago, you know, the great brands that are RVs. There was another one, I can't think it's at the top of my tongue, but we're in most of the major RV brands, you know, that are at the higher level. You know, we are also part of JetBlue Airlines.

30:13
who use our product. We are part of, let's see, there's a couple other major airlines. I'm trying to think who I can mention and who I can't. I put you on the spot with this one. So, you know. The only reason why I don't say all of them is sometimes they kind of white label us, you know? But many times they very much talk about our partnership. One of the interesting brands we're working with now that we're very proud of is Fitbit.

30:39
And Fitbit actually has put us on many of their watches. They are sold out now. I just learned this morning of the watch that they use our fabric for their brand, for their, I'm sorry, their wristband. They're sold out of that product and they even talk about us on the back of the label. So we're very proud of the Fitbit partnership. It's crazy. I mean, that's what I wanted you to go there because in Scout Boats and I mean, we could go on and on and on. People to realize the scope and scale

31:09
of where Ultra Fabrics is making an impact with the number of partners for every day in everyone's lives that they may not know. And I wanted all our listeners to kind of hear that. Barry, any closing thoughts there and where can everybody keep up with all things you and Ultra Fabrics and anything else? Well, again, we just launched our new website, of course, www.ultrafabricsinc.com. And we love people to come and see us there. In terms of this topic,

31:38
Again, I think it's really fascinating about what brands are doing, the choices they have to make. As I said, we're making our own choices in terms of telling the world about what we believe in and what we value, and we think we value good things that are helping the planet. Again, very proud to be doing work for a brand that is actually contributing to the world and the betterment of it. But I think for brands, ultimately the lesson is...

32:08
It's time you take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself this question, who am I? What do I wanna represent? How can I connect more with my customers, my users, the people in my community by sharing values with them? And what are those values? And that's the question we all have to ask ourselves. All great points and UltraFabrics is lucky to have you and we're lucky to.

32:36
be able to work with you. I really appreciate you, Barry. Thank you so much, Ryan. I appreciate it. Hey guys, lots of great insights today. You can search for all of that content if you go to theradcast.com. Search for Barry, search for Ultra Fabrics. All the content, all the highlights clips from today's episode will be there. You know where to find me. I'm verified on all the platforms, TikTok, Instagram, wherever else, Facebook, LinkedIn. You can find me at Ryan Alford. We'll see you next time on the Radcast.