Cassie Petrey Reveals Secrets on The Music Industry, Fifth Harmony and The Backstreet Boys

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One trend that I'm really happy about on both Instagram reels and Tik Tok that I'm seeing is that I feel like music centric content is performing well. I'm seeing a lot of, and not like music videos, but people singing, people playing instruments or sharing a new song. I'm seeing that type of content really do well, whereas I would say three or four years ago it didn't. So you had to figure out how to sneak your music into content, but now you just straight ahead music centric content is more popular than ever on those platforms.

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You're listening to the Radcast, a top 25 worldwide business podcast. If it's radical, we cover it. Here's your host, Ryan Alford. Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast. We say if it's radical, we cover it. Well, when you hear names like Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, Paramore.

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He's pretty fucking radical. I got the CEO and co-founder of Crowdsurf, Cassie Petrie. What's up, Cassie? Hey, I'm good. How are you doing? Hey, just rocking and rolling here in South Cackalacki, South Carolina, doing what we do. Awesome. Good to have you. I know you're in Hawaii. Thank you for having me. I am, yes, I am in Hawaii right now. Nice. We all, I guess work, play a little bit of both.

01:29

Yeah, I like to pretend like I live here and work in the morning and enjoy the island in the afternoon. That's cool. So now you've got a deep background in music management and marketing with Crowdsurf and worked with a lot of big name artists and still making waves. Pun intended. How's how's life treating you these days? It's been good. It's been, I don't know when this airs, but we're coming into the end of the year and.

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I feel like in the marketing agency business, a lot of work slows down at the end of the year. A lot of clients go on pause. They're reevaluating how they want to spend their money. There's usually a dip and I'm actually this year seeing the opposite. So a little more busy than usual, but feeling happy about that. It feels really good. Yeah. I've been in the agency and marketing business for 20 years and it does get in that law in December a little bit.

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You typically do some planning like October, November, but then for whatever reason, December kind of seems to fizzle out and which I didn't hate cause you catch your breath a bit, but it does. It's picking up for us as well too, with some new business stuff. So I don't know. I don't know what that is necessarily a sign of. I don't know if everybody's like anxiously, like where's the economy going, what's trying to get ahead of it. I don't know.

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So it's hard to say. Yeah, maybe. And I was also worried about the dip because of that too, but I'm feeling good about signing new contracts and it's definitely unusual because I feel like in December I'm usually having a conversation with my business partner where I'm freaking out and she reminds me.

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that it's normal at this time of the year. And our bank statements are trending accurately. I literally have that December conversation every year, and I'm feeling a little different about it. So I'm grateful for that. Let's set the table for everybody. Cassie, let's talk about your background, your history in the industry and like maybe just for the nuts and bolts of what the hell you do. Yeah, it's always fun to explain that. And I think sometimes it's hard to explain it because it changes so much. But I own a.

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digital marketing agency, and we also do some artist management now as well. Fairly focused on the music business, but we have some sort of adjacent business as well and comedy with some actors and actresses and, and that sort of thing. And the main thing that people hire us for in the digital marketing business is to be their social media manager for lack of better terms. That's, I feel like that job varies a lot from person to person.

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And from company to company and from business entity to business entity, but we help with whatever they need help with in that world. And it drastically varies from client to client, but, um, a lot of. Social media strategy, content planning, a lot of content creation now and helping them with that side of their job. Cause there's just so much more to create now. So I think everyone needs as much help as they can get sometimes.

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And in artist management world, it's, I feel like there's actually a lot of parallels to marketing, like digital marketing management to general artist management. You're just across more aspects and you have to spend more time on the client because you're across more aspects. But in artist management, I always say you're the center of a bike wheel and all the spokes come to you and you have to keep the wheel turning. And

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That's always been a long-term goal of mine is to do more work in artist management. So I'm happy that we have more projects in that space and definitely looking for one or two more of the right artists that are the right fit for us going into the new year. But I'm excited to keep expanding that side of our business. How long have you been in the industry? About 20 years.

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So we're about the same time frame. It's been a wacky world, right? Like the analog to digital. We've we had only so many ways with which to reach customers 15 years ago, 15, 20 years ago with mass media. And then this crazy thing with social media comes along and it's the opposite. It's like the fire hose of channels. What's that evolution been like for you? It's been incredible. I think that if you.

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don't like that aspect of if you don't like change and trying to figure out how to utilize new tools and be excited about some sort of wrenches being thrown in the system all the time, this is probably digital marketing and probably even the music business may not be the best job for you. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing or a personality flaw. It's just really thinking about just cause you like music doesn't mean this is the right business for you. And I see a lot of people make.

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that mistake and get really flustered with change and having to relearn things all the time and finally mastering something on Instagram and then it completely being retooled or even sometimes the tool go away. You really don't know what's going to happen. But I thrive on it constantly changing. And I remember when there was a lot of talk about is tick talking a shutdown or not. And listen, I don't want to talk to shut down. I like the tool. I think there's a lot of really advantageous things about it.

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But I see who it was like, but if it does shut down, there's a lot of things that could be really fun about it. And like, where do people go and how do you capitalize on that moment of people's time on their phone going to other places and figuring out how to get there before other people do and have some good viral moments that may actually, I feel like I daydreamed about it a little bit. You've really crystallized something for me. I'm the same way.

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I really like change. I don't get attached to very many things. And I've been in the industry too, not only MusicSide, but just more general marketing, big brand stuff, New York. And I never really thought about that parallel of my personality being good at adapting to change, but how the industry changes. And you sit there talking, I'm like, you're exactly right. If you don't, I think the best marketers are the best change agents. Like you.

07:43

You're comfortable with change. You like change there. If you're like me, there's a bit of ADDness in that, like jumping from one team to the next and you enjoy that challenge. But that's really interesting. Yeah. I think I would get really bored otherwise. And I think a lot of it came from, I lived with my grandparents growing up and my grandfather, he always had these, I don't know if they have these magazines anymore, but you would get this magazine that had like.

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all these new gadgets in it and he loved trying them all and seeing if any of them could make his life better. And it was really fun. I really enjoyed watching that. And I think I maybe get a little bit of that like curiosity from him. That's what it is, is the curiosity, the marketer's curiosity. Like we're all like, I think the true marketers are the most curious people. Yeah. And I remember, and you get inspiration from like the weirdest things. I remember I was talking to my dad.

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a couple days ago and he, so he owns like a small like gardening business and he actually does a lot of his marketing on Nextdoor. I wonder what I could take from that in music. Like what, cause Nextdoor is so, that's how he gets all his work. That is so prevalent. How do, how would an artist potentially take advantage of that? I'm not sure, but I'm

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curious to think about it and maybe find the right client who would be down to experiment with that. Yes, it's so next door, I feel like is untapped for certain things. I don't know about for music artists, but it is. But I think it's that community thing, right? There's like a trust involved because it's typically like zip code driven or whatever. And so everyone feels a little safer, maybe a little more trustworthy with the content that they're because it's so community driven.

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Yeah, it's wild too. I think people feel really comfortable posting about certain topics that maybe they wouldn't share on Instagram or Facebook. Yeah, that person driving by my house unite, you know, like there's a lot of drama about squirrels on mine and whether you should feed them or not. I have a good time reading it.

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So let's name drop a little bit. I did it at the outset. I know you've worked with some big artists, maybe tell me some good stories or our audience. Some of the stuff you've done with some of the bigger name artists. I know that that's where that's been both pulling your hair out and fun at the same time. I love the, I love artists at all levels. And I think some of my favorite things I've done have been watching. Artists go from literally registering a social media account.

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to having a number one hit. And one of my favorite stories to talk about is, I worked with Fifth Harmony from literally day one, because I was a digital producer on X-Factor season 2012, and that was the season they were on. And they literally weren't a group yet at that point. So I saw them audition and met them before they became a group. And it was really cool to be a part of watching them form to...

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going to acquiring them as a client once they were a group and to work with them through the entirety of their career and watch an Instagram account go from, and Twitter was very important in their era. Watching these accounts get registered and go from zero to millions to they have, work from home has over a billion streams on Spotify, but that's really rewarding to watch it from.

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day one literally and I actually I'll I have one memory I have of them is when they were this was when

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Social media didn't have the kind of support for talent and artists in terms of like actual staff that they have now. So I remember when I had to switch Fifth Harmony, because they had two other names on the show before they became Fifth Harmony. And I had to register their Twitter handle live. And if you don't want to do it so early that you reveal the name before Simon Cowell does, but you don't.

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want to have somebody else grab the name before you do. So it's really, so I'm like watching from like the truck and like doing it 60 seconds before I know he's announcing it. And now you would have

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I would have staff that would help me with that in terms of staff that's at Twitter slash X or meta or wherever, but then they're just, okay, we're off at five. Have fun. And that was a really stressful moment for me because also you're, you're in a tent in a parking lot, like wifi isn't as reliable. It's there's a lot of variables, but I'll never forget being in like a tent.

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switching fifth harmonies, Twitter handle live is Simon Cowell is announcing their name being changed again. It was a very stressful moment for me. I imagine the real, especially like, all right, how fast can this happen? Knowing that I can go live any second. Is there any delays because you want, because immediately when grab the old name. Yeah.

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You have to grab the old name so that somebody doesn't get it and capitalize on that too. It's tricky like handle changing social media, handle names is more stressful than it sounds. I promise you that. Yeah, because you don't want to lose if they've got build up audience and then making sure the name's available. And especially as soon as Simon Cowell is about to launch it, how many million people are going to Google it, search for it and then look for or look for that name on.

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or search for within the platform. So you're like, oh, it's gotta be set up. Totally. And then we'll do the, like you're talking about a little bit, like buying, they'll go buy. Sometimes there's handles of names or companies or something they haven't like thought of it. Like they'll go, some scrupless people will go buy or just get the handle, like URL, like the WWW name for different things. We've had that happen with like companies that didn't plan ahead.

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Yeah, so you want to think through and make sure that you don't have that moment on social media or WW handles or wherever, like where somebody else grabs your name and they squat on it forever. It's really horrible getting those back sometimes. What's the process for how both now and in the past, like artists come to you or you get in front of, or get the opportunity to become the marketing or music management for a big artist.

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I would say cold pitching or not even cold pitching, even pitching people. I feel like pitching unasked or unprovoked hardly ever works. I do it occasionally because I would kick myself if I see an opportunity that exists that I didn't inquire on. For example, there's this pop artist right now who has, has a lot of hits and is doing really well, but I noticed her tour wasn't selling well.

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So I know her management team. So I pitched them. I was like, Hey, if you want somebody to do tour marketing specifically, I know you're killing it on the music side, the viral side, but I on Ticketmaster, you can see if how tickets are doing. You can see the whole map. And I saw that this artist tickets weren't selling as great as I thought they would based upon her success with music right now. So I reached out and

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Pitched about that. I didn't hear back. I probably won't because again, I feel like that never works in music for some reason. So most of my projects do come to me or their referrals or they're like, I would say most of my, I feel like I get a couple of texts every day that's Hey, do you have time to take this on and needs to start immediately that I feel like that's how most of my business comes in. It's never for K in three months. We're going to launch this. It's usually we needed you yesterday. Can you start immediately?

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You don't even have to do official proposal because we don't have time to wait for it. I would say that's how a majority of my business comes in right now. The old fire AM ready. Yeah. I like that though. Like it's less work for me to get started. I don't have to make a big PDF. Um, they already know what they're buying. I don't have to explain it. I don't have to sell it. I like that in a lot of situations, especially if I have.

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worked with at least one of the team members before. The expectations are in the right place. And I don't have to do all that upfront work because a lot of times you're doing so much work upfront. And then if you don't get the bid, you lost time and labor over that. And it's frustrating if you spend time on something and may or may not get the project. So I like that situation. Yeah, we, at our agency, I've gotten really transparent with like clients on, I'm not gonna spend,

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three days on a proposal. This is gonna be very generic. Cause you could spend your whole, you could make no money and do nothing but do proposals if you give away all the ideas and do everything. And I had to learn that the hard way. Like I worked on a lot of big companies and big industries and then started my own agency. Starting out, you start to put time, and you put a lot of thought in those things. You could just do nothing but that and you may not get any of the business.

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Yeah, it's a balance because you want to put your best foot forward and give your best shot at getting a project, but like you ha you do have to put boundaries on it because you could literally spend, I could spend 40 hours on it, myself on a proposal if I wanted to and make it amazing. It, but you, it's just not reasonable to do that. So I have three or four kind of templates I operate off of and depending upon how much the project is, what type of project it's more corporate or indie. I adapt.

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and create a proposal based upon that. But yeah, you could spend a really long time making a marketing plan or proposed pitch look really good. What's been some of the, the music industry has changed a lot. Social media has changed that. Tech talk. I know you can tell me the stories, but talk to us about just the changing music landscape with streaming and everything else. This is a different game, right?

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It is a very different game. And there's some things that are really nice about streaming. That the thing I like about streaming is that when before, when an artist would sell a record, they would get paid off of selling that one record and they, you don't get, they didn't get paid based upon how many times I played that song on that record as a consumer. And now they do. So I think that's cool. The downside is that in order to make back that $1 or whatever you would have

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had on a song, somebody has to play that song over a thousand times. And that's unfair too. The, I like the concept of streaming in terms of somebody being rewarded financially for a long time. I like how easy it is from a lot of consumer standpoints, but the finances still have a long way to go in terms of, I think, compensating people fairly for songs that they listen to a lot. It's a tough balance right now. And I almost think that sometimes there's too much.

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value attached to paying $10 a month. Like you really get every song ever made for that amount of money. There has to be some, a little bit more push and pull I think on that. But I do like the experience as a consumer and I like artists being able to see long-term how have data attached to their songs and have finances attached to that. But the finances still don't match what we're getting off of.

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selling records and a lot of situations. So it's interesting to think about that. It's been interesting, also, like the opportunity for independent artists seems in some ways greater than ever because of the ability of social media to pop off. Now, they may still run into some of the financial challenges like we just talked about. But if they're smart, they tie everything together. They can monetize with their influence online and merch and.

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But it does just seem like there's a more clear path for independent artists than there's ever been. There is, and there's a lot of opportunity. There's a lot. There's a bigger middle class of artists now. There's a lot of artists that they may not be like Giant Mansion and Malibu rich, but a lot of people making six figures and having a good life off of music. That's possible for more people now. And I think that's a really cool thing. And I think that.

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The other thing that's really great about social media and ease of distribution of music is that it is more saturated because more people have access to these tools, but everybody can at least have a shot at it. You can really try without, no matter where you live, no matter who you can try and you can give it a shot. Whereas I think several decades ago, you just, everyone couldn't give it a shot the way that people can now, at least not

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in the same capacity. So I do think that there is something that's really nice about more people having a chance and more control over being able to share their music and share content. That there is something that's really awesome about that. Yeah. And I think, and you see this like it's the personal brand, right? Like obviously the music is so tied to these artists that they kind of guides it for them, but they're able to

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bring to life their personality and a broader picture of themselves as an artist, the ones that do it right, like with what social media brings. Because again, 15, 20 years ago, it was, you gotta sell albums, an independent artist can't afford to be on TV unless they're invited on television or they get in mass media some way or make local radio. Whereas now, there's this distribution aspect

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ability to almost have their own, once they have some attention garnering from the music itself, they become their own media network. I think the ones that are doing it well are the ones maybe that high six figures, million dollar type, bumping their head up against some real dollars.

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Yeah, I feel like all the people who are living in that independent artists, making a good, like middle class artist living, so to speak, is what I'm calling it. They are all really smart. They're not just good at music. They're good business people. And they know how to take what they do with their music and make social media representations of that. Because I think about when music video format came around, a lot of artists were really resistant.

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to making music videos. They didn't understand why they had to have a visual attached to the song. They didn't like that. But what happens is that music evolves with the physical media players that we have in our lives. So as the television became more popular, music had to have a version of itself that was on television, or else you're not going to reach people, because that's how people consume media. Now we have

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phones and we've had to evolve music to be something that fits in people's phones and be in the format that people are consuming general media and general entertainment. So we have to evolve art to be in those places or else people aren't.

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going to get exposed to your music. TikTok short form vertical content is the new music video. And that is how you're going to reach new people. And it's the equivalent of saying you're not 10, 20 years ago saying you won't make a music video where that was standard. And that was the only way to be on MTV. So if you want to be on today's MTV, which is TikTok phone, you have to figure out how to make content to be on that format.

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How do you, like when you're working with artists to that end, from a content perspective, what becomes your role working with either an up and coming or an existing one as far as content development and what have you seen as some of the trends of what's working, what's not working on maybe some of these platforms? Yeah, so every artist is very different in terms of how they should use or how they feel comfortable using.

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social media. One trend that I'm really happy about on both Instagram reels and TikTok that I'm seeing is that I feel like music-centric content is performing. I'm seeing a lot of, and not like music videos, but people singing, people playing instruments.

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than sharing or sharing a new song. I'm seeing that type of content really do well. Whereas I would say three or four years ago, it didn't. So you had to figure out how to sneak your music into content. But now it's just straight ahead. Music centric content is more popular than ever on those platforms. So I think that's a really good thing for artists because I feel like a lot of them didn't want to get on TikTok for example, because they're like, I don't want to dance in lip sync.

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And I, even then I would reel it back for them and say, Hey, at the core of this platform, it is a platform where you post videos. We don't have to do what other people are doing. You literally just have to figure out what videos you want to post on that platform. I think that meant for a lot of artists who were resistant to that, I think that made it click for them, which is great. And they, I think that once you get over that, like.

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mental barrier why you should or shouldn't be on a platform and what you're going to post on it. I think it becomes a lot easier and can become fun. So that's a way that I break it down for a lot of artists who are resistant, but it's, I think it's easier than ever for artists to be a part of it because again, like music content is being consumed, which is really awesome. And I'm really happy about that. I've been waiting for it. So it's good. There's a lot of fun stuff on there right now.

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Yeah, I feel like in my feeds, I'm big in the music, like just listening. And so I'm sure the algorithm has got me figured out, but it's, and I'm a country music guy, I listen to a lot of everything's, but like now it's like, I'm swiping on TikTok. It's every other one, someone in their guitar or singing somewhere. So I think you're right. I definitely see a lot more, not just the music video or the, whatever the portrayal of the song might've been, but just live concert things or some of these artists just.

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doing very organic portrayals or playing on their back porch. Yeah, no, it's great. And then there's the whole, there's a lot of like singing in garage, video trends, singing in car, playing music for people in car, doing like a

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stripped down acoustic version of a song or sharing a new song for the first time in that format. So it's good. There's a lot of ways to share music on social media right now that are being well received. Do you guys work with artists like has the all the music is pretty much streamed and the money is made there for the most part that and do you guys get into like concert management and touring or merchandise or other ways for monetization for these artists?

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For sure. I would say especially on the independent artists, whether we're, when we're their artist manager, we're definitely very involved in that because that's a big part of our job and how a lot of them make their living. But even with the artists that we're not the artist manager of, we aren't helping sell those things because that's how they make their income. Some artists or venues will hire us specifically for,

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tour marketing or show marketing, figuring out how do we do that both online and offline, because a lot of times creating a moment online or offline, for example, sending an influencer or a cool item that's themed around a concert that creates an online moment. We do some concert marketing. We do a lot of merchandise designs and a lot of marketing that merchandise, but we're really helping market.

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anything that is a part of their income stream. So that could be a new movie they're in, a sink that they got in a movie, merchandise, their tour coming up. A lot of times we're across artists' brand deals and making sure that they have all their deliverables on that. We get the contract and make sure that they actually do what they're supposed to. But all we're across pretty much anything that's gonna make them money. There's gonna be a digital reflection of that and we have to be across that. Any good?

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Juicy or drama stories from like large artists that you've worked with, like any good story dropping you can do from, I don't know, something that doesn't have to be juicy or salacious, but just, I don't know, fun. I know you mentioned the one thing, but anything else that's like rare that people would get a kick out of. Oh, I don't know. I think this is always a fun story for me. I remember one time. So Backstreet Boys were like the love of my life when I was 12 and they all in their

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client of mine now and they all know that they were the love of my life when I was a teenager.

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And I remember I was at dinner one time with AJ from Backstreet Boys. And he just like cornered me and he's who was your favorite? And I was like, I don't want to answer that question. This is so stressful to me. Who's your favorite? I'm like, I'm not going to tell you. And he's like, no, it's not me. Cause you would have said it. And I was like, oh, you're right. I totally gave it away. But that was, it was funny, but also I got really embarrassed about it. Cause I also, I really didn't want him to know who my favorite was because I know them all now and I don't want to be like, yeah, I had a huge teenage crush on this person. Like.

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really stressed me out. Do they embrace it now? It's all good natured. Do they embrace it or is like social media? They're hiring you to manage it. They know they need to do it. But I would think that some of them are just kind of thought that they understand the power of it, but it's a lot. They're all smart and I think they understand that it's important. And I think some of them, some of the members of Backstreet Boys, I think have a really good time on social media. I think I don't think any of them hate it. Yeah. And I think a lot of them do have moments where they have.

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have fun with it, but I do think they all view that it's important. And I think they view me and my team is important because we understand their fan base and what they're going to want to, what's important to them. Because I think sometimes they're almost surprised as to what a fan of theirs might care about. They're like, really? That's interesting. And I'm like, absolutely. Like your fan base will love this. I promise. But they're in general, just really great to.

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to work with and very like reasonable and kind. And they didn't fall in the don't meet your heroes category for me. Thank God I was worried about working with them because of that, because I loved them so much when I was younger. And they're one of the reasons why I loved going to concerts and wanted to work in music. But they they fortunately have been awesome and very easygoing in term and cooperative about social media. So I'm grateful for them. What do you make of the power of music? I think.

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is no better personified now than the power of Taylor Swift and everything that's happened with her and every storyline. And I just saw where she was like the most streamed artist on Spotify this year. It's just, it's amazing kind of watching her journey, both in and out of the music industry, all this music talk made me think of her and just stuff with Travis Kelsey and all this stuff, but she's just a total bad-ass, huh?

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Yeah, she's a brilliant artist and a brilliant businesswoman on both sides. I think she has both of those things mastered. And I think something that's been really cool about watching her release all the Taylor's versions of these, all the Taylor's versions of her records is that it shows that like when a song comes out, it's not.

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dead in three months. Like it has a bigger, like songs have a really big lifespan and can deserve to be re-released and celebrated again. And I think that this concept has really proven that point. I think also trends and TikTok have really proven that point. Songs that are more popular now than they were 10 years ago, but music doesn't have to like age the way it was.

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way I think that we traditionally have looked at it as an industry. And I think that her releasing those records have has proven the power of that. And a lot of trends that are happening on Tik Tok and social media in general, prove that point. I'm excited about that because people spend so much time. Creating these songs and they shouldn't just be shelved because they're three months old. So I'm really happy about that. That is a very good insight and a very good point and something I've noticed with the way.

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back, if you look at the charts now, the way some of these artists, where it was always just, it was always about that timeline, okay, when it comes on, how long is it gonna make it on air, and like it lives and dies on that timeline, when you're 100% right. Number one, these albums have 10 to 15 songs on them, and there's always, some albums, maybe there's only one hit, but a lot of them, there's a ton of songs on there. And it's been interesting, if you watch the charts,

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seeing like five, six, seven songs from different artists that make the charts and stay on there. And then even back to my country, comparison Morgan Wallen, having like entire, every song on the album in the top 20 for six months. And then the album, but to your point, the longevity of the songs and then bringing songs back, I have appreciated that happening more. And I think it's probably just the nature of the streaming and not just living and dying by the radio station.

33:41

That's a great insight. Yeah. And I love the multiple songs on a chart thing. Cause growing up when I was a teenager, you didn't see that because the radio drove a lot of those numbers. And I think about when Baxter Boys Millennium came out and I wanted that was going to be the song that was charting with that. Moment. And then you had larger than life after that, but it would have been released now that whole record.

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would have been charting that way. And all of those songs had cultural relevance and not just the one that was on the chart. So I like to see a more accurate representation of what people are listening to and excited about. And a lot of times that is multiple songs from the same artist. And I think it's also encouraged these artists to not put out music faster and not be scared that they have this one hit going and they don't wanna ruin it. So like...

34:35

They're quicker to do collaborations. They're quicker to do an EP or put out a song fast. It just seems like it's helped evolve the artists that have a lot of talent, a lot of ability to just keep pumping it out.

34:52

Yeah, for sure. And you don't have to go be in a studio for a year and not release anything. Like there's, there you don't have, you don't have to follow. You can follow any template you want. Now there's for some artists that is the way they need to do it. They need to go collect their thoughts and make a record for a year and then come back. But some people are like tortured by that process. And like some artists like to release stuff closer to when they're developing it. And I'm glad that's an option for them now.

35:21

Absolutely. Cassie, it's been a great discussion. Where can everybody learn more about you? Keep up with everything that you're up to.

35:30

So I'm most active on LinkedIn and Instagram and it's just my name, Cassie, C-A-S-I-E, P-Tree, P-E-T-R-E-Y. It's been great having you on, appreciate you doing it. Thank you for having me. And if you wanna learn from me directly, join my newsletter, RyanOffer.com backslash newsletter. Sign up, I give daily advice on marketing, personal branding, podcasting, life. Give that a shout, join that, it's free, it's daily. Just like this show, give away our best advice. Hey guys, you know where to find us, theradcast.com.

36:00

search for Cassie Petrie. You'll find all the episode highlight clips from today, the links to her profile, and the full episode audio and video. You know where to find me, I'm at Ryan Alford on all the social media platforms. We'll see you next time. All right.

36:14

To listen or watch full episodes, visit us on the web at theradcast.com or follow us on social media at our Instagram account, the.rad.cast or at Ryan Alford. Stay radical.