Introductory Voice [00:00:05] You are listening to the Radcast. If it's radical, we cover it. Here's your host, Ryan Alford. 

Ryan Alford [00:00:17] Hey, guys, what's up? Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast. This is Ryan Alford, your host. We're here in the lovely Greenville, South Carolina studios- The Radcast Home, which is Radical, the badass, coolest marketing agency on the planet. Just saying that in case you didn't know. So I'm here with Samrat Saran, Head of Client Solutions at Neuro-Insight. We are going to break down neuro in marketing. If you're going, "what is neuro?" Well, you're about to get brainy, my friend. Samrat, what's up, my man? 

Samrat Saran [00:00:49] How's it going, Ryan? It's great to be back. 

Ryan Alford [00:00:52] Hey, man, I really enjoyed our Tik-Tok discussion, and I'm stoked to  get into some of the the impact of the brain on marketing and maybe even more broadly than that, just some some ways that brands should be thinking about content creation and branding across the ecosystem of social media. So I'm stoked to have you on, man. 

Samrat Saran [00:01:20] Oh, absolutely. My pleasure. We've always thought that the decisions we make in life are conscious, from the moment we wake up and we say, "I want to have a cup of coffee to what we're going to have for lunch. How are we going to celebrate the afternoon?" But the truth is, 90 percent of our decision making is happening in our subconscious. Our subconscious is that meta computer behind our brain that is constantly processing every piece of information you are getting. Something as small as a little watermark logo, a piece of paper that you get in direct mail to all the ads that you're seeing that you don't even realize that you remember. The subconscious is taking that information, filtering it down, saying, "All right, this feels good, this feels engaging, we should pay a little bit more attention to it, and that then gets transferred to the conscious brain when the time to make a decision comes up." So when you ask somebody here, "What are you going to have for dinner?" They are like, "oh, I don't know, I'll see what I'm in the mood for." What they're basically saying is my subconscious is still trying to figure out what we feel as an individual we want to do and what we're hearing right now that will get me in the mood. Then when I tell you that I'm going to have pizza today, I'm going to rationalize it with, "Well, yeah, because pizza is my favorite food. It's been a long day. I just want something easy." The rationalization process starts. 

Ryan Alford [00:02:55] Are we talking about the voices in my head or are we talking about marketing? I don't know, either.

Samrat Saran [00:03:03] Voices in your head are the impact of multiple subconscious going on.

 Ryan Alford [00:03:08] Oh, man! It's getting scary already. 

Samrat Saran [00:03:11] But, that's what Neuro does. We try to understand the subconscious of the brain and how that is trying to understand the world. From a marketer's perspective, that is, in essence, what you are trying to communicate with. For the longest time, we've always thought about it as... Let me give you a rational argument or a lifestyle based argument and hopefully you'll consider me. But, it's not the same, and especially now with things completely fragmenting. Our world is no longer the pyramid world of marketing, where I start at the apex with TV advertising, and then I broadcast across channels. It's an ecosystem style marketing where everything feeds everything else. In that world, the subconscious is more pressured to make decisions faster. Then the stories that are the simplest, that are the most engaging, that are the most touching and the most relevant, those are the stories we need. For brands, that is what you're trying to get through and that's where we come in.

 Ryan Alford [00:04:24] Yeah, I call it a separate life, but having been in this game for 20 years and living in the rat race, that is New York City, where I know that's home in some part for you is, I have sat through more focus groups than I care to admit for a number of brands. As you just described, you try to ask people what they think about an advertisement in a rational way. You framed it up perfectly. So you ask people, "Hey, what did you know? We're going to show you five ads and we want you to get your natural reactions to them." It always felt a bit flawed. Depending on the client that we were working with, we could work the room, whichever way we wanted. What concept do we really want to sell here? I can almost tell what was going to happen before it happened. Go figure. But again, asking people what they think about an ad in the moment with no other variables, no other metrics involved, always felt very flawed. 

Samrat Saran [00:05:40] You are right, because I would be sitting as your opponent in that same room, coming in from the insights world, where I worked for Pepsi Anheuser-Busch being like, "I'm looking at these concepts, I think some of them have potential, some of them are more important for business reasons, and I know some are the things that the creatives love." If I have six people come into the room every single time, the creatives are going to go for the one or two comments that two people have made, the business folks are going to come in for the two comments that people are making and then as an insight person, you're trying to figure out what all these six are saying. But, when I go to a barber and I say, "Hey, listen, what do you think about this hairstyle and will it suit me?" Well, one, it won't suit me because I don't have much hair left. But, the barber or the hair stylist can tell you exactly based on the texture of your hair, based on their own skill set, how that's going to work. If a focus group was conducted with creatives or with businesspeople, and you are asking them for their opinion, I think the focus group would work great because these are people that are trained to think holistically about the solution. When you're talking to somebody who isn't trained in this field, you are putting too much pressure on them to be able to articulate what they're feeling and then rationalizing that with cause. In certain things, like when you're doing behavioral studies where you're like, "hey, what do you do every day?" They're like, "well, this is my routine. These are the brands I like. This is why I started to choose them." That part makes sense because they have built habits. They're the experts in themselves.

When you're trying to understand true consumer reaction, you need to go into the subconscious and you need to understand what's happening within the subconscious. We've talked about this. The processes are pretty much the same platform to platform. Whether you're talking about TV, you're talking about radio, out of home or social media platforms like Tik-Tok. We first have a reaction on, "Hey, do I let it?" And that's your approach with your response taking place off, "Do I want to lean in and listen more?" It is something that we measure. Then it goes over to engage them that what I am hearing is actually relevant to me. In fact, we have seen studies where if you are walking down the street and you see a face that you recognize in New York City, out of the millions, the engagement part of the brain kicks in saying, "Hey, I think we recognize them. We should pay a little bit more attention." You then sense a feeling of emotion and all of that, then depending on the way the story was told, we'll get into memory. Now, you can either have the narrative off the story going into the memory, where you're like, "Oh, wow, that was a great story. I loved it. I just wish I knew what brand it was for," which means the narrative went through or you can have a story that just gets the brand through like, I remember this Doritos commercial, it was really fun on Super Bowl or you can have a story that breaks both on narrative and on branding. When you have that, whether it's on TV, on radio or out of home or anywhere, that's when you've created a moment of connection. You can only see that when you're studying all those neural patterns that we study. Over the course of the years that we've been doing this, we've studied over thirty thousand ads across platforms. We have seen that most brands even now are more focused on the brand part of it, which is I just want my brand to get through. The creatives are always focused on the negative side of things, and you're hoping this fight will get the story to become better, but most often of them not. It actually ends up tilting one way or the other. I'm sure you have great stories on this as well. 

Ryan Alford [00:10:02] Oh, my God! It happens daily. How do we get our logo in there more? Like that. That statement alone. I'm not going to name, but I remember a certain client when I was in the middle of my career. I guess I'm still in the middle of my career, but in the early middle of my career. It's ingrained in my head like, "we need the logo bigger. We need the logo bigger." If it was a TV spot, you know, can we get the branding, showing a little bit sooner? It's the age old fight, you know, creative rights, nice spot. This is back in the old days. We move a lot quicker now. But, you're right, the spot is a really good spot. The client sees it. Then you spend 4 weeks back and forth on how much brand we can get into it and the client never completely grasps. There's no right or wrong here. Coming from the agency perspective, I think the good agencies and myself, I want to put us in this camp. We're not representing ourselves, we're representing the consumer for you. When you put the consumer first, then everything comes together. What the brands do is they think about themselves. They're trying to sell, everybody's got pressure. You've got a marketing department and marketing spend and they've got the CMO's, the fastest guy fired at every organization, like I get it. But, what they don't understand, though, is the consumer perspective is always the best perspective. If they aren't getting the story they don't care. The brand can come through. Our Cadbury story that we talked about in the last episode is point blank. Gorilla playing in the air tonight, you know, on the drums has nothing to do with Cadbury. The light brand mentioned at the end, and we see that's the highest scoring ad in the history of your study. 

Samrat Saran [00:12:13] You're making the right point. It is not about branding frequently, it is about branding at the right moment. It is the same way that you come into a room and you announce yourself to a group of strangers and you're like, "Hi, I am Joe and I am the creative solution to all your problems." How many people will want to pay attention? But, Joe comes in and says, "Hey, guys, how's it going? Let me tell you a really interesting story. I was walking the other day and I happened to meet this really interesting person who gave me this really interesting story. These are all the interesting facts about it. Oh, by the way, I'm Joe, and this is what I do." This is how I run into and I still made the introduction of who I am. But, the interweaving of the narrative as to why I'm at the party starts to make it much more interesting. The challenge with creatives is struggling to keep the narrative fresh. Because the one thing about the subconscious is it doesn't like repetition. If I have seen a story one way and I continue to see the same format happening, I just start to turn off. That's why when they did Cadbury's the second time with other characters, it never worked. In this challenge with creatives, sometimes they push too far. That has another impact on the advertisement.

Our process is very different, depending on the platform, depending on the kind of story you want, whether it's an equity story or whether it's a true product story. We actually sat down with the creatives first and we said, "Give us your vision. What do you want to make people feel?" From there, we actually helped craft the story with them. So we think of ourselves not as market researchers, but as co-editors in the process. Some creatives love us for this, some creatives are like, "You're stepping on our toes." 

Ryan Alford [00:14:33] Screaming, “Get out of our sandbox. Get out of our sandbox.” 

Samrat Saran [00:14:36] What we see as this, we can't come up with a creative solution, but we can tell you where your visions fall short in execution. That, I think, is the place where neural actually comes in. It helps combine the art of human understanding with the science of execution. That has been that missing link within the industry. You probably have seen this as well. The same thing that works on TV, that 30 seconds doesn't work on Youtube, that 15 second doesn't work on any other platform. You can't just convert that into audio and play it on the radio. Each story, each format is different. 

Ryan Alford [00:15:21] There was like a violin playing, it was soft music to my ears, as you speak. I just came out of a meeting and this is a part of my daily sales pitch is what we do, Radical is a blend of art and science. What's happened in the industry is a lot of digital agencies especially have gotten lost in the source of data and targeting and all this. We'll get to the creative later in the story, and that's just flawed thinking. Great advertising and marketing is the blend of the art and the science. It's a lost art, especially the creative storytelling side, and it's so important still. 

Samrat Saran [00:16:11] You have to think about this story in chapters.  You will tell a part of the story on a particular medium. The rest of the story happens in the other mediums, and when people see the whole story, they're like, "Wow, I completely get it." Now, each story, each chapter has to stand on its own merits, that's important, but you cannot expect a chapter to deliver the full book.

 Ryan Alford [00:16:43] That's where clients get stuck because they think they got to say at all and they got to say it all the same way. They're so used to claiming the 30-second spot that says it all if they try to and then you lose the story. Then they want to jam that into a Facebook video.

Samrat Saran [00:17:03] I think it worked in the 1960s when there were 3 channels. People would watch the same ads basically on repetition. Probably worked all the way up to the 90s as well, and it probably worked better in the 90s when there were 200 channels.  But now that's not the case. Now there are not 200, you're talking about 20 million. From what you see on buses with the banner ads over there to what you see on billboards to what you hear on radio, even a few minutes. You cannot communicate everything. There is a philosophy that we have actually seen work a lot for our clients, which is called the Theory of Iconic Drippers. Here's a question for you, Ryan. If I asked you to think about the Lion King movie, what's the first thing that comes into your head? 

Ryan Alford [00:18:01] I forgot the names, but I guess the father dying or Simba or the fight between the brothers. 

Samrat Saran [00:18:16] Now, when you start to think about that scene, the movie is slowly coming into your head. You're starting to picture the scenes before and after. That is what you call an iconic moment of the scene or a movie ,or an iconic moment of any story. Same thing happens when we read books. We don't remember right from the beginning, all the way to the end. We might remember the book cover, we might remember a certain character, we might remember a certain scene. That is how the brain stores information.  Our subconscious creates these little mini hooks. From those hooks, the rest of the narrative gets built. If you actually thought of your advertising the same way. Create mini hooks that complete the story, but that many hooks, what's common across it is not the full story that's common. The way we get to those moments is when we're starting TV advertising or when we're starting radio or when we're studying out of home or even digital. We are looking for those iconic moments of the ad where all the parts of the subconscious and this is the subconscious, not what the eyes are looking at or where the face is expressing or what your sweat glands are sweating more, it's not biometrics, this is your true subconscious. We're the only ones who can do it. When you create a scene that is so iconic, this is what people will most likely remember about your ad, we then say this is your hook now. Now use this to complete the stories across all the other channels. What that does is if you see it for the first time on digital, you'll see that hook. Now, if you happen to see it on TV, all of a sudden that memory is created even stronger. You see it out of form. Again, the memory is created even stronger. With a small marketing budget, you have effectively increased your ROI. You've told a great narrative and you've made great branding. These are the ways that you make great marketing happen. It is not when you're trying to push your logo everywhere. 

Ryan Alford [00:20:32] Well, you've got to entertain them on some level or create a moment that's entertaining. It's interesting when I think about the iconic hooks. I'm going to ask a couple of questions myself. So, we're talking and trying to help small to medium businesses narrow down on these things. But I'm going to talk about a big business here for a second. Is the iconic hook for a campaign like progressive, is it flow? Is she the iconic hook or is just the comedic part of each one of those spots? 

Samrat Saran [00:21:08] So that is a great question because an iconic trigger moment could be one of many things. It could be a specific audio cue, it could be a visual feast of the brand, It could be the specific climax of the story or it could even be the introduction seat. That's the beauty of the subconscious is that anything can be an iconic moment when it is executed correctly. For example, in progressive, she became an iconic moment. She became a symbol, and then her in the comedic positions became those iconic triggers. But, when the Flow first came on, when the Verizon guy first came on, when the Gecko first came on, they were just characters. This is also a part of storytelling that I think small and medium businesses could probably benefit a lot from, do not try to make a campaign for a year with just the idea of I'm going to sell it because you're always going to be in that fight. Marketing and sales have to be thought about differently. Sales is the art of selling. Marketing is the art of storytelling to enable sales. 

Ryan Alford [00:22:36] If I had my soundboard right now and if I had an Amen key, I would say Amen! I don't know how much time you spend in the Church but I grew up in the South and the Southern Baptists and the deacons were like, "Amen", when the pastor would say something good. You just said it. I would have given you a hallelujah and Amen on all of that.  I have to convince clients even today that sales and marketing are separate. 

Samrat Saran [00:23:09] Unfortunately, when you confuse the two, you don't do justice to both. There is a part of marketing that lives within sales that happens at the point of selling and point of buying. But, the art of storytelling is not the same, and I have found many examples. This is not just  small and medium businesses, which sometimes I feel are actually much better at sales driven marketing at the point of buying and selling. But, in larger companies where marketers also confuse that when you get into a store, you should not be doing the same equity based marketing that you're doing on TV or on a broadcast media or on social media. I think the tension is real because it's happening on both sides, not just from one department. 

Ryan Alford [00:24:03] That's right, I see it all the time. How many times a week do you have to explain the difference between neuro and other forms of research? 

Samrat Saran [00:24:17] Probably three times a day, my doctors recommend it to do it less.  From what I first remember, I was driving back home from the office and there was a show on the radio talking about neuromarketing. This was about 10 or 12 years ago, and things have picked up dramatically since then. From people not understanding the concept of neuromarketing to now everyone claiming that they do know neuromarketing. I've had people come up and pitch to me while I was at Anheuser-Busch and at Pepsi, where we study micro expressions on the face as qualitative focus group moderators. That's a form of neuromarketing. We had to study eye tracking, and that's a form of neuromarketing.  You're just seeing where the eye is going. 

Ryan Alford [00:25:18] That's the conscious. That's not the subconscious. 

Samrat Saran [00:25:20] Exactly. Here is a fantastic way of explaining eye tracking to you. Let me give you an encyclopedia and let me ask you to go through a page. Everything that you have seen on a page where there's the picture, the words, does that mean that it's imprinted in the the subconscious brain? No, all it says is where my eyes are going. Those are great for diagnosing when you're doing packaging design or when you are doing something that is related to navigation cues.

 Ryan Alford [00:25:53] The website UI and all that kind of stuff. 

Samrat Saran [00:25:56] It helps you figure out the parts, but beyond that, if you try and use it further in trying to create behavior, it does work. People then talk about running instrumentation that will study your heart rate and your sweat glands, and they call it galvanic skin response. It is basically a measure of your best arousal. So when you're watching a movie and it's a horror film and you want to hear something about that, those things could work. But when you're trying to create advertising, when there is a particular point to this story, those systems don't work. Trying to explain to clients that just because somebody claims it's neuro ,doesn't make it neuro. The same way somebody says that they understand a little bit of science, doesn't make them a doctor. You should be actually asking the question, "Do you really study the subconscious or do you study some other part of it and some measurement of a physical reaction that might be happening." How you react to something physically versus what you're thinking are many times not exactly the same. 

Ryan Alford [00:27:25] When I think about what you guys do in evaluating, especially when we think back to some of the Tik-Tok work or the Super Bowl work and some of those things, I think about you guys evaluating and helping. You put the brain pads on, you're evaluating the subconscious to give people feedback on those things. You guys have been doing this a long time. You are the experts in the field. I know you did this with some of the Tik-Tok study and  things like that. Are there takeaways that then you guys bundle for clients in helping them holistically improve their marketing and creative outputs? I know every campaign is different. So you've got to get a writer and an art director working on a campaign and putting it together in a specific product or service. Are there things that you universally recommend to companies or agencies or otherwise in that process? 

Samrat Saran [00:28:39] Yeah. So what we do is first and foremost, we make sure that your branding comes through. Branding doesn't mean that you slap the logo on the whole thing. We are specifically looking for your most dominant branding moment and have you told a story that actually gets it to that point where people are like, "I'm interested in knowing what this brand is?" That is the core focus of what we see as a marketer you should be focused on. Otherwise, what you'll end up doing is you'll create a narrative that nobody cares about and you've just lost marketing dollars or you're creating a narrative that will benefit the category, but not you. You might create a great ad for insurance, but I don't know what brand created that narrative and now I'm just going online and I'm looking at different insurance companies. So you just advertise for the art category. 

Ryan Alford [00:29:45] You just struck another nerve in me. I remember I used to do BDI, CDI studies. Remember those terms? So its category development and brand development. Sometimes, for a startup, there's no category awareness, so you have to elevate the whole category. I remember the days of wireless. I was doing wireless in 2001. We had to do some category development other than people that were working that had bag phones, you know, because they had to be mobile and they were aware of it. There was not universal awareness of cell phones and the category itself. Verizon Wireless spent millions of dollars in category development and even though there were other players coming in, they had to do it, and how much was spent on category versus brand. We did all these BDI, CDI studies. In a new business, when Uber came around, they had to elevate the category because it didn't exist.

Samrat Saran [00:30:56] The question that becomes is like, "what is right here? How does this work?" You have those category questions and there is a time for that. But in an established category, it's about differentiation. You have to be able to bring your brand out. That's the first thing and there are many principles to what makes good branding. Some of them I think we just talked about. We just published in The Frontiers of Neuroscience a phenomena that happens, which is called conceptual closure. 

Ryan Alford [00:31:31] Conceptual closure, correct? 

Samrat Saran [00:31:33] Exactly. Conceptual closure basically means that you have told a story the brain thinks now that the story has come to an end. It takes a couple of seconds to sit and process everything that it's heard, starting to filter out what it wants, what it does and wants. During those two seconds, you've shown a brand. The two seconds in the ad when you basically give the brain a pause, is when you short branding, and a lot of people do this. It starts with fade the black slow down the music, you know, shows people going away into the horizon, things that we're like, "oh, we're completing the story." You're not completing the story, you're ending the story. To date, this is 10 years we've been watching this happen. For the last 10 years, that was the biggest principle that we were talking about to avoid this. There are techniques to how you avoid conceptual closure. There are techniques to how you make sure that conceptual closure doesn't impact branding because it's normal for the brand to take many breaks and process information. There are techniques where even if conceptual closure is happening, we can try and mitigate the response on branding. That's the most fundamental and basic way that we protect our life for brands. For us creative, the narrative integrity and the creative vision is very important. Once we have branding, we start the second principle on the creative vision. How do we tell the story the way the creative wants to tell it? Sometimes it is small scenes. A simple scene can change and make a huge difference in the way an ad performs. We actually have seen this time and again where a wrong pause, a wrong look has changed how people perceive the brand. The idea is how do you create a great ad with minimal changes doing that. That's the second principle we have. Then the third one is when we are in the storyboard or animatic phase, depending on the platform, we actually guide creatives on it. Screen Time makes a huge difference on the way you process information. If I were to give you a 10 point email on a laptop, you're going to actually read and remember things differently than if I gave you a 10 point email and asked you to read it on your phone, because the parts of your subconscious that actually get engaged, depending on screen type, are different. So storytelling has to be different. We work with creatives and brand teams to basically fine tune the ideas in the development phase. So those are principles that we have. No story is the same, no idea can be replicated identically and brand and narrative have a huge impact on the execution. 

Ryan Alford [00:35:05] So to back up one second. I'm backing up conceptual closure, we're trying to avoid that? Am I hearing you correctly? Because we don't want people thinking the story's over. I mean, help me. I think I understand it, but help me explain in layman's terms, like the reason we're trying to avoid that when we're doing marketing and advertising. 

Samrat Saran [00:35:38] We're not trying to avoid it, we're trying to avoid it before branding. 

Ryan Alford [00:35:44] Before the branding, I got it. Thus the story ends, now I'm with you. We just told a funny or sad or interesting story in whatever format, and then we fade to black and show the logo. You're kind of shutting off instead of being included in the message. 

Samrat Saran [00:36:07] Exactly. That's the most basic way. Think about movies. When you watch movie, it fades to black screen credits. What do you do? You leave this. 

Ryan Alford [00:36:14] Yeah. No one watches the credits. 

Samrat Saran [00:36:16] Unless you did something amazing. Marvel did and said, "Oh, by the way, there is a scene at the end that you need to wait and watch." 

Ryan Alford [00:36:23] Yes. I love that. 

Samrat Saran [00:36:25] People waited five, six minutes. I think that is the magic of storytelling. You create these new ones, and that's the best part about Inception closure is. You think you've solved for conceptual closure because you've done it a few times, but because advertising changes at such a rapid pace, what was causing conceptual closure? We're creatures of habit. So what was causing conceptual closure in the past couple of years because of the learned habit actually has now changed. What we saw with ads was there were ads when you would fade to black and it wouldn't work, but then people started to change to fade to the reds or fade to the whites and they stop working. Then they started to do things where they start the ad with a brand and let me just avoid this whole issue of conceptual pleasure. But, you give away your brand too early and all of a sudden people are like, "Oh, I'm not interested." The subconscious adapts so quickly. The theories are there. We just have to keep watching how people change their responses. 

Ryan Alford [00:37:56] I love it, man. I think we could talk all day about this. 

Samrat Saran [00:38:01] It is a deep thing, the mind. 

Ryan Alford [00:38:05] Yes, no kidding. This is my wife's. 

Samrat Saran [00:38:12] I just don't want her to feel left out. 

Ryan Alford [00:38:14] Yes. I'm going to get some brain pads so I can hook them up to my wife and know what she's thinking at any moment. 

Samrat Saran [00:38:24] We haven't gotten there yet. We just stop at how people are reacting. We don't try to go further into what they're actually thinking. 

Ryan Alford [00:38:36] Damn it. All right. I love it, man. But there's a lot of good stuff here. I know we're going to continue these conversations. We could go on and on. A lot of insight here for brands and marketers that are thinking about the output they put on different channels, the importance of context for those things, the different screens, the impact. That was really enlightening to me, thinking about it that way. Even within the screens, you've got vertical and horizontal. There's so many layers to this. I really appreciate you coming on again and sharing your insights and telling us even more about the brain and how scary it is. 

Samrat Saran [00:39:14] It's a wonderful place where the greatest stories and the most amazing inspiration comes from. I think the more we can talk about it and learn from it, the more we will inspire ourselves. Thank you for that. Great. 

Ryan Alford [00:39:26] Yeah, man, we're going to keep up with you again. Let's drop any of that info so anyone that may not have heard our last episode can know where to find you and everything about Neuro-Insights. 

Samrat Saran [00:39:37] Yeah. So you can absolutely come to our website. It's neuro-insight.com, or you can search me on LinkedIn. I keep regularly posting new content there. It's been a pleasure talking to you. 

Ryan Alford [00:39:51] Great. Well, we really appreciate someone coming on and our great partnership with Neuro-Insights. They are the go to for the real, the greatest and the best in neuro and brain and all that stuff. They are doing some cutting edge things. We're so excited to be partnering and having them on and them just sharing so much knowledge with all of our listeners. Well, you know where to find us. We're @the.rad.cast on Instagram, the radcast.com. We've got a new website launching here. In the next few days, you're going to find all of our content. You can search for anything, any topic that you want. You can search for Neuro. You'll find all of our great episodes with Neuro-Insights. You can search for Instagram, anything and everything. We spent a lot of time on really aggregating all of the content we've brought to life on the Radcast. So be on the lookout for that.

You know where to find me around on Instagram. I'm @ryanalford on all the platforms and we'll see you next time.

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